# Its time for Israel to launch Operation Susa **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474 "2011-11-10T03:41:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Schuyler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/54ee81/32.png) [@Schuyler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schuyler)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/101 "2011-11-11T00:31:02Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Given the context, while I don’t necessarily dismiss the idea that Reza Shah may have thought the name change might have been politically beneficial to his relations with Nazi Germany, I’m unconvinced that was a primary reason for it. I suspect its a tad more likely that story about the ambassador is apocryphal, though I wouldn’t want to argue about it. It _could_ be true, at least in part - stranger things have happened in history. > > I’ll note that the above names and details are mostly taken from the paper _The Evolving Polemic of Iranian Nationalism_ by Firoozeh Kashani-Sabet in Iran and the Surrounding World: _Interaction in Culture and Cultural Politics_ ed. by Nikki R. Keddie and Rudi Matthee ( 2002, University of Washington Press ). Can I just say, thanks for your wonderful post - consider ignorance fought! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/102 "2011-11-11T00:44:15Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > A nuclear armed Iran is mainly a threat against Saudi Arabia and other neighboring states. Why should Israel (or even the USA) do their dirty work? Let the Saudis deal with it. I seem to recall that defense of Saudi Arabia from any potential next-on-the-menu invasion by Hussein was the initial reason given for sending U.S. troops there in the Gulf War, which started out as “Operation Desert Shield.” Dunno if the Saudis really did have anything to worry about, at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/103 "2011-11-11T00:54:14Z")
I don’t speak Farsi, but virtually every reputable source agrees with Professor Cole’s assertion that Ahmadinejad’s statement(in which he was quoting Khomeini) has been mistranslated and that the actual quote was(as best as I remember) “the Zionist entity shall be wiped from the page of history”(though I’d want to recheck to be sure). Ironically enough Al-Jazeera stands by the more common translation while MEMRI stands by the IMHO more proper translation. > [@brocks](#): > > It’s not controversial as a matter of historical fact, but I’d say it’s controversial to bring it up in the context of the present government of Iran threatening Israel. > > The name change occurred in 1935, years before the death camps, years before the invasion of Poland, and even years before Krystallnacht, so it is wrong to imply that has anything to do with present-day anti-Semitism. I can think of several European nations with a much richer history of anti-Semitism, including jolly old England. > > And siding with Germany during the war was just realpolitik. You might as well call Obama a commie because the US sided with the Soviet Union during WWII. > > But if you are a native Iranian, maybe you can clear something up. Juan Cole, among others, has said that Ahmadinejad is being mistranslated in the often repeated (including this thread) quote about wiping out Israel. They say he was not talking about killing everyone in Israel, but merely restoring control of it to Palestinians, i.e. wiping it off the map just means changing its name and government, with former Israeli Jews becoming future Palestinian Jews. > > Can you comment on this? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/104 "2011-11-11T01:27:17Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Oh please. > > Why should we accept the word of one of the most distinguished scholars on Iranian history in the US when we can accept the word of an American who doesn’t even know how to say “Good morning” in Farsi > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I don’t speak Farsi, :rolleyes: First, I never made any claims here; I just asked you to back up claims you made, which you have utterly failed to do. Second, you throw out that insult and then several posts later admit that you yourself don’t speak Farsi… :smack: Third, Hi Opal! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/105 "2011-11-11T01:39:25Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > :rolleyes: > > First, I never made any claims here; I just asked you to back up claims you made, which you have utterly failed to do. Once more, I’m amused by the arrogance of someone who’s knowledge of Iran is composed of a single badly crafted google search insisting that quoting one of the most distinguished living Iranian American historians does not constitute “backing up” one’s claim. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/106 "2011-11-11T01:53:05Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Once more, I’m amused by the arrogance of someone who’s knowledge of Iran is composed of a single badly crafted google search insisting that quoting one of the most distinguished living Iranian American historians does not constitute “backing up” one’s claim. You didn’t back up your claim. You posted the same unattributed text, in almost exactly the same words, as you posted the first time. No cites, no references, no research… just the same (plagiarized) shit you posted the first time. The only arrogance on display here is your own. I (and others) asked you for a cite to back up your contentions, and thus far you have given us the same passage twice, both times with weasel words intact. Do you have any real references to show that what you claimed is true? Or just the un-cited writing of one guy that was then plagiarized by another guy? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/107 "2011-11-11T02:18:49Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > You didn’t back up your claim. You posted the same unattributed text, in almost exactly the same words, as you posted the first time. No cites, no references, no research… just the same (plagiarized) shit you posted the first time. I quoted from an article by Ehsan Yarshater, the founder of the Center for Iranian Studies and the Hagop Kevorkian Professor Emeritus of Iranian Studies at Columbia University. [http://www.iranchamber.com/geography/articles/persia\_became\_iran.php](http://www.iranchamber.com/geography/articles/persia_became_iran.php) > [@](#): > > In 1935 the Iranian government requested those countries which it had diplomatic relations with, to call Persia “Iran,” which is the name of the country in Persian. > > The suggestion for the change is said to have come from the Iranian ambassador to Germany, who came under the influence of the Nazis. At the time Germany was in the grip of racial fever and cultivated good relations with nations of “Aryan” blood. It is said that some German friends of the ambassador persuaded him that, as with the advent of Reza Shah, Persia had turned a new leaf in its history and had freed itself from the pernicious influences of Britain and Russia, whose interventions in Persian affairs had practically crippled the country under the Qajars, it was only fitting that the country be called by its own name, “Iran.” This would not only signal a new beginning and bring home to the world the new era in Iranian history, but would also signify the Aryan race of its population, as “Iran” is a cognate of “Aryan” and derived from it. > > The Iranian Ministry of Foreign Affairs sent out a circular to all foreign embassies in Tehran, requesting that the country thenceforth be called “Iran.” Diplomatic courtesy obliged, and by and by the name “Iran” began to appear in official correspondence and news items. Now if the Hagop Kevorkian Professor Emiritus at Columbia University and the Director of the Center for Iranian Studies isn’t considered a reliable source, than no one is. Certainly if you want to claim that Yarshater isn’t a reliable source and his article isn’t reliable, then you certainly can, but you’ll just make yourself look extremely stupid, particularly since your sole contribution has been a wikipedia article. Anyway I’m done with this thread hijack. If you wish to continue I’d recommend opening a thread in the pit so we can speak more freely. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/108 "2011-11-11T02:28:09Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > It’s not controversial as a matter of historical fact, but I’d say it’s controversial to bring it up in the context of the present government of Iran threatening Israel. > > The name change occurred in 1935, years before the death camps, years before the invasion of Poland, and even years before Krystallnacht, so it is wrong to imply that has anything to do with present-day anti-Semitism. I can think of several European nations with a much richer history of anti-Semitism, including jolly old England. > > And siding with Germany during the war was just realpolitik. You might as well call Obama a commie because the US sided with the Soviet Union during WWII. You’ll notice that the name change wasn’t something I made a big deal about. It was just one of many things I noted as to why many Jews were nervous about Iran. I also have said I don’t think that the Shah was motivated by anti-Semitism but by “realipolitik” as you noted(though I phrased it differently). The point is that the Iranian government has been quite anti-Semitic and given Jews reason to worry for a variety of reasons. Amongst others, Ahmadinejad has suggested having all the Jews in Israel sent to Alaska(no, I’m not kidding). Now, obviously Ahmadinejad doesn’t have the power to do this even if he genuinely was Iran’s leader, but it’s understandable why Jews get scared when they hear stuff like that. Keep in mind that there are many Iranian Jews in Israel since there’s been a mass exodus of Iran’s Jewish community which had stayed there for over a thousand years. In 1947 there were around 200,000, but now there are less than 20,000. There disappearance is a really tragic story as is the exodus of many ethnic and religious minorities in the Middle East from many countries(including Christian Arabs from Israel FWIW). ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/109 "2011-11-11T03:05:49Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The point is that the Iranian government has been quite anti-Semitic and given Jews reason to worry for a variety of reasons. That point is not disputed. But you distract from it when you throw everything at the wall, relevant or not, to see what will stick. Thanks for your earlier response on the translation issue. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/110 "2011-11-11T04:06:59Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > Ahmadinejad is being mistranslated in the often repeated (including this thread) quote about wiping out Israel. They say he was not talking about killing everyone in Israel, but merely restoring control of it to Palestinians, i.e. wiping it off the map just means changing its name and government, with former Israeli Jews becoming future Palestinian Jews. > > Can you comment on this? That is the most ugly, nasty post that I have seen on the SDMB. Shame on you. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/111 "2011-11-11T04:16:31Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > That point is not disputed. You sure seem to be disputing it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/112 "2011-11-11T04:38:30Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > Ahmadinejad is being mistranslated in the often repeated (including this thread) quote about wiping out Israel. They say he was not talking about killing everyone in Israel, but merely restoring control of it to Palestinians, i.e. wiping it off the map just means changing its name and government, with former Israeli Jews becoming future Palestinian Jews. > > Can you comment on this? I think you may be misrepresenting what Cole says. Your phrase seems to imply that Ahmadinejad and the Ayatollah felt that the Israeli Jews would simply become “Palestinian Jews” and be treated equally, which they certainly didn’t want. For starters, the idea of them being “Palestinian Jews” makes no sense since from their perspective Jews can’t be Palestinians and vice versa. Secondly, nobody amongst the Palestinians or the Iranians who propose wiping out the “Zionist entity” have ever suggested that Jews should be treated as equal citizens. In fact, the PLO in their Covenant have gone out of their way to indicate that they most certainly wouldn’t be treated equally. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/113 "2011-11-11T04:45:25Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > That point is not disputed. But you distract from it when you throw everything at the wall, relevant or not, to see what will stick. For starters, please don’t question my motives. Secondly if you think I threw “everything at the wall” then you don’t know very much about Iran because I could have gone into much greater detail on a number of different reasons why Jews should be nervous about Iran getting the bomb but I don’t think people would have had the patience to read eight separate posts. I merely listed a few things that A)popped into my head and B)that Israelis and Israeli supporters have voiced anxiety about. Finally, while in certain areas Cole is a worthy source, he’s also an ardent partisan with some rather questionable beliefs. Amongst other things, he insists that the US State Department and the US Defense Department are controlled by Jews who care more about Israel than America. In short, I’d take anything he says regarding the Israeli/Palestine conflict with a grain of salt. People who hold Anti-Semitic beliefs can have valuable ideas, but one should be careful how one judges their ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/114 "2011-11-11T07:44:21Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > For starters, the idea of them being “Palestinian Jews” makes no sense since from their perspective Jews can’t be Palestinians and vice versa. That’s untrue, there have been Palestinian Jews, one of them was a senior member of one of the leftist PLO factions. The PLO also specifically defines those Jews who resided in Palestine prior to 1947 as Palestinian. I think it’s so dishonest to try to reframe this as some sort of genocidical conflict, it’s about land. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/115 "2011-11-11T09:01:41Z")
Yes, you might think that in the US particularly, people are interested in getting past the heavy propaganda blockade put up around this issue. More and more, seems it isn’t so and this being the US, there is a civic duty is to ensure the Israelis get their money’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/116 "2011-11-11T10:55:13Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > That is the most ugly, nasty post that I have seen on the SDMB. > Shame on you. WTF??? ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/117 "2011-11-11T12:38:55Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > WTF??? Hmm, yeah. I think he misread. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I quoted from an article by Ehsan Yarshater, the founder of the Center for Iranian Studies and the Hagop Kevorkian Professor Emeritus of Iranian Studies at Columbia University. As an observer here, I can only say that Tamerlane’s analysis is more useful and credible. And you were the one who got aggressive, rather unnecessarily I think. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/118 "2011-11-11T14:16:56Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Keep in mind that there are many Iranian Jews in Israel since there’s been a mass exodus of Iran’s Jewish community which had stayed there for over a thousand years. In 1947 there were around 200,000, but now there are less than 20,000. > > There disappearance is a really tragic story as is the exodus of many ethnic and religious minorities in the Middle East from many countries(including Christian Arabs from Israel FWIW). The Israelis have made something of an effort to corner the market on Hebrews. During one of the civil wars in Ethiopia they’re meant to have traded weaponry to the government in exchange for the ability to remove the Falashas, meaning the Ethiopian population of Jews is now also almost extinct. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/119 "2011-11-11T14:28:25Z")
> [@](#): > > A key allegation in the IAEA report on Iranian nuclear activities has fallen apart. Gareth Porter has been able to use interviews and other material to demonstrate that Vyacheslav Danilenko, a Russian scientist referred to without being identified in the report, is not a nuclear weapons expert. [See the Juan (at this post’s date for later readers)](http://www.juancole.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/120 "2011-11-11T17:03:00Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > As an observer here, I can only say that Tamerlane’s analysis is more useful and credible. And you were the one who got aggressive, rather unnecessarily I think. Yesterday was certainly not my best and I may have overreacted, but he was the one who was more than a little aggressive and sharp at first and there are few things more annoying than being attacked by someone who thinks wikipedia articles are a good source. And yes, Tamerlane’s analysis was excellent and a very worthy edition to this thread. That said, I think Tamerlane would freely admit that Ehsan Yarshater, is a vastly better source and vastly more qualified to analyze the reasons why the Shah asked all foreign governments in to henceforth address his country as “Iran” not “Persia” and when the Director of the Center for Iranian Studies and a Chair of Iranian Studies at Columbia believes that this is the most likely explanation, well, then that should be treated as the most likely explanation. Obviously, it’s probably best to say that we can’t be sure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474.md?page=7)