# Its time for Obama to flex some big muscle in Syria **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 1, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187 "2015-10-01T23:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187/21 "2015-10-02T04:29:28Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Cold War standard operating procedure was to give top shelf AA arms to our allies. That should be the first step to respond to Russia’s attack on the non-ISIS Syrian resistance. > > At the very least, Obama needs to stop letting Putin push him around. At least with Ukraine it was a case where no other President would have intervened either. It’s in Russia’s sphere of influence. Syria is not. Even if the PResident chooses not to challenge Putin in Syria, he has to have a plan to get the better of Putin somewhere else. It’s time to start screwing with Russian interests if they are going to screw with ours. If Putin wants to go back to the Cold War then we should oblige him. We’re much better positioned to beat Russia into the ground than we were then. Putin knows this, but as long as we don’t challenge him he can just do whatever the fuck he wants. > > I’d note though that sending our armed forces into Syria is insane. it would bring American and Russian forces into direct conflict. We can fight another Cold War. Fighting WWIII is just insane. If Putin wants to fight in Syria to prop up Assad, let;s make sure he leaves a lot of Russian bodies behind like in Afghanistan. Why not just get Putin and Obama in a room together, have them drop trou, someone gets out a tape measure and then we’ll know for sure. Just as effective as what you’re proposing, and much cheaper. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187/22 "2015-10-02T04:33:46Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Their first targets weren’t ISIS though. And just abandoning our allies doesn’t exactly enhance our credibility. Our Syria policy has been an incoherent, weak mess. It’s incoherent for the reasons I gave. There’s nobody in Syria that we actually want to see win. There are essentially three factions fighting. Right now, Assad (a brutal pro-Russian dictator) is based in the west. ISIS (fanatic jihadists) is based in the east. And the “other guys” (who are mostly a group called The Army of Conquest and are no prize) are based in the middle. It’s not like the Army of Conquest is promising free elections and civil liberties. If they win, they’ll just set up a dictatorship of their own that’ll probably be as bad as the Assads have been. But at the moment because they’re being attacked from both sides, they’re willing to at least pretend to like us. I’d hardly call them allies however. They’re allies only in the sense that Stalin was our ally during WWII. It is true that at the moment, the Russians are mainly attacking the Army of Conquest and the other rebels in the middle of Syria. These are the people who are currently next to Assad-held territory. Once these rebels have been cleared out, Assad and ISIS will be face-to-face again and will go back to fighting each other. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187/23 "2015-10-02T04:37:15Z")
Worked in Afghanistan. Worked for them in Vietnam. And please, enough with the anti-macho rhetoric. It was stupid during the Cold War and it hasn’t aged any better. In the real world, demonstrating strength still matters. Failure to do it causes wars, it doesn’t prevent them. If Putin thinks he can attack our allies without consequence, eventually he’ll attack one we can’t abandon. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187/24 "2015-10-02T04:38:03Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If Putin thinks he can attack our allies without consequence, eventually he’ll attack one we can’t abandon. > [@adaher](#): > > At least with Ukraine it was a case where no other President would have intervened either. It’s in Russia’s sphere of influence. Syria is not. Just to be clear, Syria is very much in Russia’s sphere of influence. Syria has been a Russian ally since 1946. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187/25 "2015-10-02T04:41:25Z")
Not in terms of the ground rules of the Cold War. NATO and Warsaw Pact allies were off limits, but going to war anywhere else meant you had to fight proxies of the other side, well armed proxies. The Soviets had no problem fomenting and supporting coups and rebellions all over the world and eventually we followed suit. If anyone from Truman to Bush 41 were President, arms would be headed to the non-ISIS Syrian rebels as soon as practicable, especially arms that could shoot down Russian jets. We are in a MUCH stronger position vs. Russia than we were when we armed Afghan rebels. But we’re acting like we’re weaker. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187/26 "2015-10-02T04:53:51Z")
BTW,I’d note that both we and the French are also bombing Syria. Are we supposed to pull out now? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187/27 "2015-10-02T05:17:03Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It worked exactly as it was supposed to. That’s a very scary thought… > [@](#): > > I get the point you’re making, but the same logic says that Lend Lease to Stalin was a horrible mistake. No, it doesn’t. In WWII we were fighting an existential threat to all of Europe. The current situation, as horrible as it is, is just your plain ol’ civil war. There have been hundreds of such wars throughout history. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187/28 "2015-10-02T05:36:18Z")
A civil war in which several nations are already involved: Russia, France, the US, Iran, and several Arab countries. If you were President, would not intervening anywhere Russia wants to prop up or replace a government with one of their own be your policy? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187/29 "2015-10-02T05:54:33Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > With Russia in the fight, it’s going to be over pretty quickly, in Assad’s favor. I dont agree. Russia is far from its supply base; is facing an enemy that wants to won far more than it does; and hasnt faced the terror backlash that I predict is coming. The most Russia can hope for is a Pyrrhic victory. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187/30 "2015-10-02T06:08:07Z")
Iran is now sending ground troops. It does look like the balance of forces is turning against ISIS, especially if the French and the US also maintain their bombing. [http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/01/us-mideast-crisis-syria-iranians-exclusi-idUSKCN0RV4DN20151001](http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/01/us-mideast-crisis-syria-iranians-exclusi-idUSKCN0RV4DN20151001) ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187/31 "2015-10-02T06:17:27Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Its time to pull all the stops and storm Syria. The situation has become intolerable for millions of people. Um, Some one is Russia has determined, that if they don’t do something to salvage Syria, they lose their warm water port. Putin has determined that is not in Russia’s long term goal to lose Syria, so he is sending in the red airforce, and bombing random targets. Since Russia has not had oppurtunity to use its airforce since Georgia, I’m betting that they are not going to be down in the weeds, or even using combat controllers to make sure that they actually hit what they are aiming at, who they actually do hit, is going to become the “designated target” Be nice if the NRO was publishing the BDA data. Yeah, bottom line, I expect that the Russian airboys are going to lose a pilot or two and end up being rescued by American spec ops. Declan ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187/32 "2015-10-02T06:41:29Z")
Yeah lets have an open conflict between Russia and America. Thats such a receipe for peace. Worst case senario? Lots of canned sunshine. Who does not love a sunny day. Or sunny night. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187/33 "2015-10-02T07:00:22Z")
Who has advocated for open conflict? In any case, it looks like we will be continuing our bombing campaign and we’re working with Russia to avoid incidents. If the Russians decide to shoot at our planes, then that’s on them and they’ll bear the consequences. We’re making every effort to avoid that kind of situation short of running away with our tail between our legs. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187/34 "2015-10-02T07:03:47Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Not in terms of the ground rules of the Cold War. NATO and Warsaw Pact allies were off limits, but going to war anywhere else meant you had to fight proxies of the other side, well armed proxies. The Soviets had no problem fomenting and supporting coups and rebellions all over the world and eventually we followed suit. > > If anyone from Truman to Bush 41 were President, arms would be headed to the non-ISIS Syrian rebels as soon as practicable, especially arms that could shoot down Russian jets. > > We are in a MUCH stronger position vs. Russia than we were when we armed Afghan rebels. But we’re acting like we’re weaker. > [@adaher](#): > > A civil war in which several nations are already involved: Russia, France, the US, Iran, and several Arab countries. > > If you were President, would not intervening anywhere Russia wants to prop up or replace a government with one of their own be your policy? No, you pretty much have the entire situation backwards. As I’ve pointed out Syria has been a long-standing ally of Russia. Now there are two separate rebellions against the Syrian government. And the United States has been backing one of them. As you pointed out, the “ground rules” are you don’t interfere in another country’s ally. Syria should have been “off limits” to us. But we sort of ignored that rule. Our position was essentially that the rebellion was already happening so our interference didn’t count. And now Russia is saying “nuh uh.” They’re pointing out that the Assad regime still exists and is the recognized government of Syria. Russia isn’t the one trying to replace the government. The United States is the one trying to replace the government. (In our defense, it’s a really bad government.) If I were President, I’d be smart enough to know that fighting a war with Russia wouldn’t be a good idea. I would do it if I had a really good reason. But trying to take over a Russian ally like Syria is not a good reason. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187/35 "2015-10-02T07:22:25Z")
Well, for what it’s worth, the Obama administration and our allies are sticking to “no future with Assad” as our policy, backed up by air power. We are staying in Syria, we’re just going to try to fight in Syria without fighting the Russians. This should be complicated in entirely new ways. Good thing our President is brilliant. And I actually don’t say that sarcastically this time. If he’s as smart as his fans say, then he’s the guy to manage a situation this unprecedented. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187/36 "2015-10-02T07:42:45Z")
The Russians have stated they will use their military to keep Assad in power. We’re saying we will use our military to remove him from power. I don’t think brilliant is the appropriate word here. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187/37 "2015-10-02T07:50:28Z")
And we’ll attempt to achieve our goals without actually shooting at each other. Or at least I know we won’t shoot at the Russians. Who knows what Putin will do? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187/38 "2015-10-02T08:06:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And we’ll attempt to achieve our goals without actually shooting at each other. Or at least I know we won’t shoot at the Russians. Who knows what Putin will do? Niether Putin nor Obama have any control over what actually happens in theatre. Yes orders can be given and all forces are professional, but its a combat situation, people are jumpy and mistakes can happen (look at the USAF/US Army Aviation long and distinguished history of attacking friendlies). They chance of a shooting is high, Chances of them causing an escalation are also there. At least the Russians have a much higher chance of success, their bombings are coordinated with moves on the ground, unlike the US, which is "hit anything which looks remotely ISIS like). This is extremely extremely unwise. [QUOTE=adaher] If the Russians decide to shoot at our planes, then that’s on them and they’ll bear the consequences. [/QUOTE] The “consequences” end in nuclear war. American cities because Putin allows them to exist… and the reverse is also true. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187/39 "2015-10-02T09:33:46Z")
An incident in Syria is not going to lead to nuclear war. Let’s say that Obama took the most extreme conceivable action in response to Russian aggression against our pilots: he had our air force clear the Russian air force from the skies of Syria. Do you really think Putin has the balls to start a general war over it? There’s no reason the fighting HAS to move beyond the borders of Syria. Again, every step of escalation is up to Putin. There has to be a limit to his crazy, right? And personally, I don’t think he’s crazy at all. I think he just thinks he can get away with humiliating our President. Once he realizes he can’t, he’ll back down. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187/40 "2015-10-02T10:01:34Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > An incident in Syria is not going to lead to nuclear war. Let’s say that Obama took the most extreme conceivable action in response to Russian aggression against our pilots: he had our air force clear the Russian air force from the skies of Syria. Do you really think Putin has the balls to start a general war over it? There’s no reason the fighting HAS to move beyond the borders of Syria. Again, every step of escalation is up to Putin. You don’t think that the U.S. shooting down Russian planes would be an escalation? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-obama-to-flex-some-big-muscle-in-syria/733187.md?page=3)