# It's time, once again, for Americans to tell the world how to fix soccer. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 14, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742 "2014-06-14T00:06:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742/241 "2014-07-16T19:35:00Z")
Oh yeah, [flourishing:](http://thebiglead.com/2013/11/12/mls-tv-ratings-are-lower-than-the-wnbas-can-the-league-do-anything-to-improve-them/) > [@](#): > > In 2012 MLS posted its best ratings average on ESPN since the league’s inception in 1996, averaging over 310,000 for its 20 broadcasts. A year later it lost almost 100,000 of those eyeballs[…] > > Last month I spoke with ESPN’s lead MLS analyst, Taylor Twellman, specifically to talk about the U.S. striker pool leading up to the World Cup, yet we spent a solid 25-30 minutes wondering why the TV ratings remain so minuscule and stagnant? > > “Everything has grown but the TV rating, that falls on the fans shoulders,” Twellman said. “Miniscule and stagnant”, nice. (“Stagnant” is a generous adjective given that they dropped from 300,000 to 200,000 a game from 2012 to 2013.) Let’s see how this compares to [NFL viewership:](http://www.forbes.com/sites/bradadgate/2013/11/25/the-most-popular-football-games-arent-on-sunday-night/) > [@](#): > > This season the six late afternoon CBS games have been averaging 25.6 million and the five late afternoon Fox games have been averaging an even higher 26.9 million viewers. Those games are on simultaneously, so that’s over 50 million people watching football in the U.S. any given Sunday from 4-7 Eastern (1-4 Pacific). \*250 times \*as many as watch MLS broadcasts. Yowch. Now I feel kinda bad for picking on you guys. All your talk about a big TV deal and so on, your spin actually had me going for a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742/242 "2014-07-16T19:35:54Z")
MLS has become immensely more popular since they stopped trying to tweak the rules that are used internationally. So, what does that say about your position? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742/243 "2014-07-16T19:37:10Z")
We posted nearly simultaneously. See the post above yours for my take on the “immensely” more popular MLS (if true, then Jesus: where did they start?!?). ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742/244 "2014-07-16T19:40:20Z")
I’d say that the MLS may be happy at its growth… [http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2014/05/12/Media/MLS-TV.aspx](http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2014/05/12/Media/MLS-TV.aspx) > [@](#): > > A watershed moment in Major League Soccer’s 18-year history will occur this week, as the league is poised to announce new media rights deals that will bring in far more revenue and lead to a consistent, streamlined television schedule. > > The eight-year deals with ESPN, Fox and Univision are priced five times higher than the average annual value of the league’s current media deals. > [@](#): > > The combined average rights fee of $90 million per year represents a stark increase from the $18 million annual average the league receives in its current deals with ESPN, NBC and Univision. Those contracts expire after this season. (The networks this year are paying around $23 million under terms of the deals because of staggered annual price increases that are part of the contracts.) > > The new deals include the rights to U.S. men’s national team matches and call for consistent days and times in the national programming of MLS match telecasts, something the league has never had before. Univision will have exclusive MLS broadcasts on Fridays, while ESPN and Fox Sports 1 will present games back-to-back on Sundays. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742/245 "2014-07-16T19:40:36Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Those games are on simultaneously, so that’s over 50 million people watching football in the U.S. any given Sunday from 4-7 Eastern (1-4 Pacific). \*250 times \*as many as watch MLS broadcasts. Yowch. > > Now I feel kinda bad for picking on you guys. All your talk about a big TV deal and so on, your spin actually had me going for a bit. Yowch what? Picking on us? What are you talking about? It’s not spin to say that soccer is getting bigger in the US. That’s objective fact. MLS had to close two franchises and pay ESPN to carry their games in the early days (when they tried to take your advice and make it more appealing to American audiences). Now people are paying $100M to get a team and networks are shelling out money to carry the games. Literally nobody is claiming that MLS is as big as the NFL so I’m not sure what you’re going on about, really. ---
**Author:** ![polar\_bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@polar\_bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/polar_bear)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742/246 "2014-07-16T19:50:15Z")
I think we should just introduce more balls into the game. Start with two and every 5 minutes without a goal, another one is introduced. Also two players that are ‘goal keepers’ but they can both only use one hand each (one left; the other right). ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742/247 "2014-07-16T20:36:02Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Even with replays it’s often impossible to tell if a player was fouled, brought down honestly or dived. Unworkable. I don’t buy that. It won’t catch all of them, but it will reduce them. > [@](#): > > Tried that. Had two extra officials in the last Euros, or the Europa League, or something a couple of years ago. Didn’t help, got rid. I’d like to see more detail on that. How was it implemented? Note that I’m not just talking about adding more bodies, but bodies with specific duties not currently covered well by the referee. > [@](#): > > Also a World Youth Cup a few year ago played without the offside rule. Didn’t work. > > We tried the sudden-death extra time, golden goal as it was called, didn’t work. Not sure why you replied to me with this. I didn’t suggest (and wouldn’t be in favor) either of those things. > [@](#): > > Dissent is already an offence and the referee can issue yellow card for it at his own discretion. Then the refs need to be told to use more often. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742/248 "2014-07-16T20:40:15Z")
I 100% agree with the suggestion of post match fines and/or suspension for simulation. I think review could be done in near real time for PKs too. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a PK taken before I’ve seen multiple replays showing whether or not it was a dive. That could easily be relayed to the ref via earpiece during the game. I think that offside could be called via motion tracking software too. This isn’t that important since I think the linesmen usually do a surprisingly good job, but it couldn’t hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742/249 "2014-07-16T20:41:43Z")
Okay, just looked up the experiment with 5 officials. It’s not at all what I was talking about. The two added officials were behind the goal line and their sole authority (as near as I can tell) was to validate goal/no-goal calls. I’m talking about having two more guys running on the pitch (but each restricted to one half of the pitch) and doing more or less what the referee is already doing but with the ability to see more of the pitch and to get a different angle. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742/250 "2014-07-16T21:34:39Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > 1. Control flopping. Post-game suspensions/fines/what-have-you. Get it down to controllable levels. > > Even with replays it’s often impossible to tell if a player was fouled, brought down honestly or dived. Unworkable. That’s a ridiculous response. It’s OFTEN possible to tell. So you review after the game as best you can, and you penalize anyone you are quite sure flopped. Some people still get away with flops. So? It’s still good to reduce the problem, even if it can’t be fully eliminated. > [@](#): > > Penalties are great drama, and objectively the best way to separate two teams still level after 120 minutes. And people say that Americans are arrogant. “Objectively the best way”? You’ve objectively analyzed EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE WAY? Again, then, why do so many truly knowledgeable observers bemoan when important games are decided by PKs, etc? It’s possible, POSSIBLE, that due to a number of logistical considerations there is no solution that actually ends up satisfying all the various appropriate criteria better than PKs. But to pretend that they’re wonderful and everyone loves them and we’re GLAD that important matches are decided by them is just bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742/251 "2014-07-17T00:08:25Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Wow, hope you’re having fun kicking around that straw man. Weird, too, since your reply to \*\*amanset \*\*below seems so reasonable. Maybe you honestly misunderstood my position? This was from a couple pages back: > > Later in the thread I suggested making the goal three feet (less than a meter) wider and one foot higher (to keep it exactly the same shape). You need to have a talk with this guy, then: > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Skimming the thread, I see no one has suggested what seems to me like the most obvious need (and applies to hockey too): increase the size of the goal to create more scoring. It doesn’t need to be so big that the final score looks like an NBA result. Just get it up to where a defensive struggle ends 5-4, an average game 10-9, and a run-and-gun shootout 15-14. You’ve gone back and forth between claiming you only want minor changes (a marginally larger goal) and a radically different game (No ties; 10-9 scores). If you’re revising your position, you need to say so. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742/252 "2014-07-17T00:14:49Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Okay, just looked up the experiment with 5 officials. It’s not at all what I was talking about. The two added officials were behind the goal line and their sole authority (as near as I can tell) was to validate goal/no-goal calls. > > I’m talking about having two more guys running on the pitch (but each restricted to one half of the pitch) and doing more or less what the referee is already doing but with the ability to see more of the pitch and to get a different angle. The argument I’ve heard made is that this would lead to the referee and his assistants having to stop play and confer over calls, which would disrupt the flow of the match (see: every NFL game). Not sure I totally buy it, but there it is FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742/253 "2014-07-17T01:21:40Z")
I am way to drunk to even begin to reply to anyone. It is also 3:20am and I have work in less than six hours. I just thought I’d throw that out there. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742/254 "2014-07-17T08:37:12Z")
> [@furt](#): > > You need to have a talk with this guy, then: My strawman complaint was because you characterised me as wanting soccer to be as high scoring as basketball. And the very quote of mine you snarkily attribute to “this guy” includes the sentence “It doesn’t need to be so big that the final score looks like an NBA result.” 10-9 is far, far lower scoring than basketball. But if someone came into the thread late, and I didn’t challenge your characterisation of my thesis, they would assume I was advocating for five or ten times as much scoring as I actually was. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742/255 "2014-07-17T16:00:36Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I am way to drunk to even begin to reply to anyone. It is also 3:20am and I have work in less than six hours. > > I just thought I’d throw that out there. You know what would fix that? Higher scoring in soccer! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742/256 "2014-07-17T16:13:48Z")
Ties are only an issue, if they are at all, in the World Cup and similar tournaments such as the Copa America and the Euros. And those tournaments are not the be-all and end-all . Arguably the World Cup is no longer the pinnacle of football standards, now that the big clubs are pretty much world all-star teams. Many would say that the Champions League and the upper reaches of the big domestic leagues are of higher standard than the World Cup. Ties are no problem in league formats, and there is never any need (that I can recall) for end-of-season tie-breakers. And even in the Champions League, teams play each other twice (except for the final) and it only goes to penalties if the scores in the two games are opposite and identical, so it’s considerably less likely. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742/257 "2014-07-17T16:31:42Z")
I think you’re missing the point. Whether tie are an “issue”, for Americans at least (the specific topic of this thread), is not about whether league standings can mathematically be worked out. It’s that American sports fans find a tie, even in an early regular season game, deeply unsatisfying. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742/258 "2014-07-17T17:57:35Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > That’s a ridiculous response. It’s OFTEN possible to tell. So you review after the game as best you can, and you penalize anyone you are quite sure flopped. Some people still get away with flops. So? It’s still good to reduce the problem, even if it can’t be fully eliminated. I’m more worried about people being wrongly punished than people still getting away with diving. > [@](#): > > And people say that Americans are arrogant. “Objectively the best way”? You’ve objectively analyzed EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE WAY? Again, then, why do so many truly knowledgeable observers bemoan when important games are decided by PKs, etc? Undoubtedly there are a lot of complaints. There are no feasible suggestions for alternatives, though. I personally don’t have to have analysed all alternatives, because the footballing authorities have spent decades looking for and trying out alternatives, and golden goal and silver goal, tossings of coins and infinite replays, and all other conceivable systems have been considered and disposed of. So yes, penalties are objectively the best way to do it. > [@](#): > > It’s possible, POSSIBLE, that due to a number of logistical considerations there is no solution that actually ends up satisfying all the various appropriate criteria better than PKs. But to pretend that they’re wonderful and everyone loves them and we’re GLAD that important matches are decided by them is just bizarre. Well, if you have a better suggestion, which i assure you is not the case, send it to FIFA. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742/259 "2014-07-17T20:46:22Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > My strawman complaint was because you characterised me as wanting soccer to be as high scoring as basketball. Dude … you’re the one making strawmen. I said no such thing. I said nothing _close_ to that. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742/260 "2014-07-17T21:41:38Z")
“Nothing \*close \*to that”? Really. > [@furt](#): > > Incremental changes are one thing – a couple people in the thread have said that making the goal a half-meter wider might not be a bad idea – but \*\*insisting that soccer be just like basketball and goals be made commonplace \*\*is something > very, very different; basically a reinvention of the sport into something different. You’re responding to rejection of your reinvention as if it included rejection of any change whatsoever. Emphasis mine. This was in direct response to my comment. That’s not even close to characterizing me as wanting soccer to be as high scoring as basketball? I really don’t know what more to say, as this seems to be a “black is white, day is night” type of deal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-once-again-for-americans-to-tell-the-world-how-to-fix-soccer/690742.md?page=14)