# It's time to establish trading blocks **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 5, 2010, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111 "2010-10-05T13:26:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111/21 "2010-10-05T16:22:36Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Okay, that makes sense. It results in an initial wage drop. So why not develop your own country’s domestic market so that your wages can rise? _That’s what they’re doing._ Why don’t you make more money so that you don’t have to worry about jobs being outsourced? ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111/22 "2010-10-05T16:36:25Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > > Okay, that makes sense. It results in an initial wage drop. So why not develop your own country’s domestic market so that your wages can rise? > > _That’s what they’re doing._ And they can do it without sucking jobs from us. That’s what I’m proposing. > [@](#): > > Why don’t you make more money so that you don’t have to worry about jobs being outsourced? I make plenty of money. But because of people losing their jobs and homes and cars I make less money now because my customers have fewer assets worth protecting from loss and liability. As a business owner I have reason to worry about offshoring; that’s yet another catalyst for “I lost my job, I’ve been out of work for 6 months, sorry but I can’t continue my policy.” Sure, there are many other catalysts but those are off-topic. I’d be saying the same thing to the big banks for creating the spark that ignited this already dangerously volatile economy. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111/23 "2010-10-05T16:38:44Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > [@acsenray](#): > > > > _That’s what they’re doing._ > > And they can do it without sucking jobs from us. That’s what I’m proposing. If they could have done it, they would have. India spent decades with a closed economic system, concentrating on developing its domestic market. It essentially didn’t work. In order for wealth to have value, it has to circulate with wealth that has higher value. Circulation is what creates value. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111/24 "2010-10-05T16:48:07Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > > And they can do it without sucking jobs from us. That’s what I’m proposing. > > If they could have done it, they would have. Untrue. They saw a shortcut and jumped at it. > [@](#): > > India spent decades with a closed economic system, concentrating on developing its domestic market. It essentially didn’t work. In order for wealth to have value, it has to circulate with wealth that has higher value. Circulation is what creates value. They have China, Russia and Brazil, along with Africa and the Middle East, to provide circulation. What higher value nation did Western nations have to circulate with? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111/25 "2010-10-05T16:57:43Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > I propose that the United States, Canada, Japan and Europe should end all trade barriers with each other and establish a Wastern block, and impose severe tariffs against (at the very least) China and India until they meet all of the following, which includes _but is not limited to_: > …Their wages rise to levels comparable to the Western block nations > [@Same](#): > > Frankly speaking I do not care if their wages tank So you propose slapping tariffs on them until they do something you don’t think they can do. And here we believed you hadn’t thought this all the way thru! So your plan is un-Constitutional, unworkable, and not even you think it will do what it says. Sounds great! Where do I sign? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111/26 "2010-10-05T17:02:49Z")
Well, it’s not the dumbest OP I’ve ever seen, but it’s damn close. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111/27 "2010-10-05T17:03:18Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Untrue. They saw a shortcut and jumped at it. You really don’t know what you’re talking about. Look, our economic system is screwed up because we let it remain in the control of the people with money who then manipulate it for their own benefit. We opened up to free trade with China in the 1990s because a small group of people got a lot richer than they already were. We also give tax breaks to companies that offshore jobs. We also refuse to make our employees more competitive by doing what sensible nations do and creating nationalized health, childcare, and retirement benefits. Clean up your own house and then think about what China and India are doing wrong. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111/28 "2010-10-05T17:07:11Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > FYI, it’s usually spelled “trading bloc.” I was wondering if we were talking wooden blocks or plastic blocks. Surely[plastic blocks](http://www.lego.com) would lead to domination by the Danes. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111/29 "2010-10-05T17:08:19Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > > Untrue. They saw a shortcut and jumped at it. > > You really don’t know what you’re talking about. You’re claiming that taking jobs from America was not a shortcut? Really? Why can’t India and their bloc raise their wages on their own, like I suggested? We here in the West did. We didn’t have richer nations to feed off of. > [@](#): > > Look, our economic system is screwed up because we let it remain in the control of the people with money who then manipulate it for their own benefit. We opened up to free trade with China in the 1990s because a small group of people got a lot richer than they already were. We also give tax breaks to companies that offshore jobs. We also refuse to make our employees more competitive by doing what sensible nations do and creating nationalized health, childcare, and retirement benefits. > > Clean up your own house and then think about what China and India are doing wrong. And if we had not opened free trade to China? BTW I am all in favor of nationalized health care, child care and retirement benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111/30 "2010-10-05T17:11:35Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > [@acsenray](#): > > > > You really don’t know what you’re talking about. > > You’re claiming that taking jobs from America was not a shortcut? Really? The term “shortcut” has no meaning in this context. > [@](#): > > Why can’t India and their bloc raise their wages on their own, like I suggested? We here in the West did. No we didn’t. > [@](#): > > We didn’t have richer nations to feed off of. Yes we did. We seized the assets of several other nations through theft, deception, and murder and sold them for a profit. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111/31 "2010-10-05T17:12:55Z")
**Le Jacquelope** , how old are you? Serious question. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111/32 "2010-10-05T17:17:03Z")
India has been independent for 50 years. Two generations have come and gone. People live now in poverty and die now in poverty. They have no moral or ethical obligation to live out several more generations in poverty so that you can keep your current level of comfort. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111/33 "2010-10-05T17:18:52Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > > You’re claiming that taking jobs from America was not a shortcut? Really? > > The term “shortcut” has no meaning in this context. > > No we didn’t. > > > [@](#): > > > > We didn’t have richer nations to feed off of. > > Yes we did. We seized the assets of several other nations through theft, deception, and murder and sold them for a profit. Fine, you keep pointing that out… so what happens when the West has nothing left for BRIC to take? You did read that cite I posted about the 2008 financial crisis knocking off TWENTY MILLION JOBS in China, right? According to that article that was a 15% jump in unemployment considering their existing labor force. If this crisis persists, you’re looking at nations going insolvent. Then the low wage bloc will absolutely be forced to make do without us. What then? There is recent historical precedent backing me here; I did cite it: [http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/02/02/china.jobs/?iref=mpstoryview](http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/02/02/china.jobs/?iref=mpstoryview) So yeah, they’re going to have to grow their wages and standard of living in their own bloc. We’re just about tapped out. My idea for a trading bloc will help us grow so that when the whole world does go back to “globalization” the risk of someone tapping out will be lower. And as I said, the end result will be all sides’ wages and standards of living will rise. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111/34 "2010-10-05T17:20:33Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > India has been independent for 50 years. Two generations have come and gone. People live now in poverty and die now in poverty. They have no moral or ethical obligation to live out several more generations in poverty so that you can keep your current level of comfort. Good. And I have no moral obligation to support them by sending them jobs to service my market. That goes both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111/35 "2010-10-05T17:31:37Z")
It’s too late. The die is cast. There is no way to go back to 1992. Out manufacturing capacity has been dismantled and our consumers depend on cheap imports from China, which holds the majority of our government bonds. Cutting them off now will send us into financial ruin. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111/36 "2010-10-05T17:34:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > > If China gets ugly about it, default on all debt owed to them and cut them loose. > > What will you do when the Supreme Court tells you that this is in [direct violation of the Constitution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)? > > Regards, > Shodan Wait, when has the 14th Amendment ever been interpreted as a constitutional bar to defaults on public debts? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111/37 "2010-10-05T17:35:49Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > How would the U.S. be able to fund its foreign wars without being able tpo sell bonds? So, there is no actual **down** side. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111/38 "2010-10-05T17:36:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Payback is a bitch, certainly, but I didn’t know she was an idiot as well. 😕 You **must** have! ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111/39 "2010-10-05T17:37:49Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > It’s too late. The die is cast. There is no way to go back to 1992. Out manufacturing capacity has been dismantled and our consumers depend on cheap imports from China, which holds the majority of our government bonds. Cutting them off now will send us into financial ruin. We’re headed into financial ruin anyway. As a matter of fact, this wouldn’t even be the FIRST Depression or currency panic that ever happened. (I’m sure I’ll be challenged for a cite on that and then accused of citing a left wing looney blog or whatever but you’ll just have to take that one on faith in history and all that.) Heck, I already cited that China has threatened to sell off our currency. Why didn’t anyone see that? Collapses happen. That’s unavoidable. When it happens we rebuild and start over. Hopefully with lessons learned and with a better system. Customers depend on cheap imports and will have to unlearn that during the next currency collapse. Hopefully it won’t result in domestic hyperinflation, but if it does, whoops, there goes the rich. That would be a complete and total reset; though I do not recall hyperinflation ever happening in America. Our manufacturing capacity hasn’t been fully dismantled. Saying we can’t rebuild them is basically amounting to surrender, is it not? ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111/40 "2010-10-05T17:40:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > What will you do when the Supreme Court tells you that this is in [direct violation of the Constitution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)? > > > > Regards, > > Shodan > > Wait, when has the 14th Amendment ever been interpreted as a constitutional bar to defaults on public debts? LOL. I missed that post of his. I can’t say why because the mods won’t allow one to announce that. Kinda makes it hard for a poster to realize why someone’s not responding to him anymore… _shrug_ I sincerely doubt any substantiation will come to justify saying the 14th Amendment forbids public debt defaults… maybe we should just write that statement off? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-establish-trading-blocks/556111.md?page=3)