You’re forgetting something – other countries have things we need, petroleum being a notable substance. We can’t make it on our own, no more than China or India can.
Our entire physical and economic environment depends on the availability of gasoline. If our economy tanks, we will never be able to reform it.
During the whaling era, the United States prospered to a large extent because of unfettered global trade. Subsequent clampdowns on 19th Century globalization contributed to financial problems that took us more than a 100 years to recover from.
Part 1: Do you really thing that the people in the US are going to be willing to pay extra for all the things that are now made in China/India/Taiwan…?
Do you own a sub $1000 flat panel TV yet? Remember what pricing was like just a few years ago?How much did you pay for that t-shirt you are wearing? I doubt if we can make $5 t-shirts here. Where were the kids’ toys made? Do you know that your Apple iPod or phone was probably made by Foxconn in China? Do you think that people are going to be willing to add $50 to the cost of their cellphone? Between engineering and manufacturing
Consumer demand for cheaper products is a huge part of what is driving manufacturing overseas.
Part 2: Why the heck would Japan agree to go along with this. And without Japan, just where are you going to get the components to build anything containing electronics?
Many of the Japanese electronics manufacturers, both at the final product level and at the componenet level, are using factories in other parts of Asia, including China. The factories to products the electronic components just don’t exist in the “Western Bloc” you described, and it would take years to build them, even if someone wanted to do it.
Part 3: Why aren’t you railling against Mexico as well, when many of the things you are complaining about in China and India happen there as well? At minimum, the 3 below apply to Mexico just a much.
Heck, add Ireland, Hungary, Brazil and Czech Republic to the list of countries I’ve seen jobs outsourced to recently.
Says the “validity” of the U.S. public debt “shall not be questioned.” A government default is not an adjudication of invalidity, ask any lawyer. They were merely saying, “Union debts shall be valid, Confederate debts shall not.”
I know all about that. I have known all about those facts since those products came to market.
And what I am saying is that a Depression is inevitable and practically imminent. When that happens the prices of those goods will go up anyway. No one will have a choice. Then what? Is that any different than slapping a tariff/trade barrier on imported goods? I guess it’ll be better when our economy collapses (or do I need to cite for you that it has done so more than once before?) and no one can afford those goods anyway.
I know that. I also know it’s killing jobs over here. It’s not dropping our cost of living at all; wages have been falling behind inflation since AT LEAST 2001. I’ve cited this. Offshoring has not stopped that problem, and there’s plenty of evidence that it is one factor that is inflaming the problem.
I’d go talk to the Japanese workers who lost their employment for life system to this globalization mess. Betcha their opposition to offshoring is similar to that in America (62%).
Okay, fine, so we just wait until the next Depression comes and do it then. Fine with me.
Well, I did mention the Western bloc as being mainly the US, Canada, Europe and Japan. I assumed you understood Mexico fell outside of that, or at least that they fell into the black list of low-wage nations. Fine. I’ll clarify for sure: Mexico is on the wrong side of that, along with Brazil. You did know what I meant when I said “BRIC”, right? Brazil, India, Russia, China. At least 3 of them are low wage nations making a killing off everyone else’s woes.
I’ve dealt with outsourced Symantec people in Ireland. I don’t recall them being ultra cheap labor. From what I understand they outsource to us sometimes, too. Of course I’m not sure about the trade deficit or surplus with them either. In any case they look solid enough to get up to speed, austerity B.S. notwithstanding.
The former Soviet territories are notorious cheap labor nations. I would hope the EU would help them get up to snuff. In any case I would see Hungary and the Czech Republic as acceptable risks. Jobs aren’t going to suck right out of America to those countries like they do to BRIC/Mexico.
But, really, what this all amounts to is one of two choices: these countries can straighten up and fly right or our economy will collapse as economies inevitably do, and all your arguments and mine will be moot: we won’t have the money to support them. I don’t know how many times I need to point this out before you see and respond to the inevitability of our economic collapse and the devastation this will inflict upon those oh so poor helpless third world economies. Unless you’re looking for a way to tell me Depressions aren’t in fact periodic or even inevitable?
Right - no US public official may suggest, as part of his official duties, that the public debt does not have to be repaid in full.
How about a cite, then? Someplace where the Supreme Court said that the US federal government can simply not pay back US Treasury bonds, and that the full faith and credit of the US government doesn’t mean anything.
“Union debts” are what we are discussing here - debt entered into by the same government that incurred the “Union debts”.
So when the Amendment says “Union debts must be paid” that is the same thing as saying “US Treasury bills must be paid”.
Outsourcing has been great for America. We are able to afford many more products and we have a much higher standard of living than we would have otherwise. In addition, sending our low skill jobs over to China and other countries has allowed American workers to move up the economic later. Before outsourcing, you could have, say, 1 American boss and 5 American workers. After outsourcing, you essentially have 1 American superboss, 5 American bosses, and 30 Chinese workers. The only people that lose in this situation are the American workers that are unable to move into higher skilled/more productive jobs.
The benefits of free trade are widely accepted by the vast majority of economists and backed up by a wealth of data. In reality, no different from Global Warming or Evolution. Those that deny GW or Evolution are (rightly) ripped on here, yet people who promote the nonsense of protectionism are, for some reason, not ridiculed.
It doesn’t say that “Union debts must be paid”, it says that “Union debts are valid”. Those are two different concepts. When I default on a debt, I don’t contend that it is invalid. I simply am saying that I am not going to pay it.
Invalid= You do not have the right to collect on the debt.
Default=I’m not going to pay.
Actually, it’s what you propose that would make it inevitable. I’m not willing to suffer through a generation or more of a depression and rebuilding so that you can oil yourself up with your hardass fantasies.
Interesting question. Not sure of the answer, really. The West has definitely had a history of imperialism. China is working up quite an imperialist appetite, too, depending on how you define it.
Well, we could always decline to do this, and then our economy will fall… taking theirs with us. Fine with me. You know we’ve had Depressions before. This one will take them down with us. I’d actually be happy to see that.
Not wipe us out militarily, I’m talking about them wiping us out economically.
They’d never start a war with us, and I’m damned sure not interested in a shooting war with them. Ugh. I’m a self-admitted extremist, but not that extreme.
The United States has certainly not “Dismantled” its manufacturing capacity - the U.S. is still the world’s largest or second-largest manufacturer (depends what estimates of USA/Chinese output you believe; they’re very close, and nobody is close to them) and China does not hold the majority of U.S. debt, or even remotely close to it; China holds (again, the precise percentage depends on what source you believe) about eight percent of federal debt, or about 21% of all debt held by foreign governments.
China has, despite Le Jacquelope’s claims, said again and again that they have no plans to dump their U.S. securities.
Which, of course, doesn’t exist since the US has never attempted to default on a debt. But, I’m not really sure why I am forced to prove your bizarre and wrong interpretation of the 14th amendment incorrect. It’s your burden to show that the common definition of “valid debt” shouldn’t apply to this situation.
Another concept you are misinterpreting. Giving one’s “Full faith and credit” simply means that you will use every available resource to repay your debt. It does not mean that I am unable to default on the debt. Basically, for a person, the scenario goes:
Me: I want a $500 loan. I will back it with my full faith and credit.
Bank: Ok here’s $500 bucks.
1 year later.
Me: I can’t pay.
Bank: But we have a valid debt backed by your full faith and credit.
Me: You sure do.
Bank: So…
Me: I can’t pay
Cut to court room scene
Bank: We have a valid debt against treis.
me: Yep, and I can’t pay.
Judge: treis is bankrupt. Debt is no longer valid.
The same thing applies to countries. The only difference being that you can’t take a country to court to claim a debt. Basically, the conversation ends with:
USA: Yes, your debt is valid, but we aren’t going to pay it. Tough titties.
What? How? I bet they wish they could. I’m sure they would rather have a countr full of people making about 50K/year than a country full of people making 5K/year. Its the main reason for teh currency peg, they want to get there faster than normal market dynamics will allow and forcing us to accept an economic transition faster than our economy’s ability to absorb such a shift.
Not really our problem unless you think they should be allowed to sanction us until we convert to communism. They are opening up and their democratization is inevitable.
They don’t WANT to breathe in coal dust but they want the economic growth. Well, I would note that they are at the forefront of green energy technology.
They can point to us as having contributed many of times more in carbon emission and pollution in our history than they have in theirs. Do we get to pollute the atmosphere and then close the door behind us and say noone else can pollute the atmosphere or do we have to provide financial incentives for them to go green sooner.
This will happen with or without our encouragement.
Its already illegal, what else do you want them to do? Artificailly inseminate the women with female embryos?
YEAH, whats wrong with those guys???
Oh so we can phase in teh middle east but China goes cold turkey?
There’s no coming back from this. The ONLY reason we are not facing teh choices Greece is facing is because of our credibility in the debt markets. Our credibility is our most important econmic asset.
They never could and they will not do so in our lifetime but they might grow into great trading partners as soon as they drop their unfair tradin practices.
Trading blocs have been used in the past…in the days of the British Empire, they had something called “Imperial Preference”. This was a system whereby the British consumers paid higher than world market prices, for stuff like Jamaican bananas, Barbados sugar, Indian cotton,etc. It was a way of subsidizing commonwealth nation’s producers, even if they were smaller and costlier than others. Did it work? Yes-it enabled small islands like Jamaica to maintain employment in the banana growing business. Of course, it made British consumers pay higher prices.
WE could do this with China-but the Chinese would retaliate.