# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 100
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1981 "2012-01-09T00:25:38Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > Dear Clueless One, > > It’s the speech maker that owns the quote, not the speech writer. > R.P. > P.S. In case you haven’t noticed, PSU is going to great lengths to distance the institution from the stench of Joe Paterno. Dear Churlish Dolt, Popularizing a quote is not the same thing as creating it. Safire coined the phrase, Agnew popularized it. And yes, if you’ll recall, I saidin the post currently under discussion that in response to the nattering nabobs of hysteria, Penn State has been shamelessly scapegoating Joe Paterno in a cowardly attempt to cover its own ass. Yours truly, **SA** ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1982 "2012-01-09T00:33:33Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And you are missing the point, the point remains the context, not the words, and we are discussing a coverup. No, the context was that Penn State has been cowering to the nattering nabobs. (Why is it that so many of you are unable to comprehend words in front of your very eyes?) > [@GIGObustet](#): > > The nabobs are more correct than you are, as they where the ones against Agnew and Safire. I don’t recall any nabobs being factually wrong about Safire, and there’s certainly no evidence to date that they are right about Paterno. So, one out of three ain’t good. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1983 "2012-01-09T00:48:44Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, the context was that Penn State has been cowering to the nattering nabobs. (Why is it that so many of you are unable to comprehend words in front of your very eyes?) The fact that you are attempting to convince others (with pitiful results) does not negate that they \*\*are \*\*giving convincing evidence and rhetoric that there was a coverup, and there can be cowering also after, it does not exclude the coverup at all but your silly mind thinks that it should. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I don’t recall any nabobs being factually wrong about Safire, and there’s certainly no evidence to date that they are right about Paterno. So, one out of three ain’t good. 😉 > **[The Propaganda of William Safire](https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/propaganda-william-safire/)** > > William Safire, New York Times columnist, doesn't know what he's talking (or writing) about. Who says? The New York Times. > > Underneath ... > [@](#): > > In his column, Safire was making a triple-play argument–from bin Laden to Zarqawi to Hussein–to claim that there had been an Al Qaeda-Iraq partnership. And he pointed to a remark that Secretary of State Colin Powell made during his February 5, 2003, presentation to the U.N. Security Council: “Iraq today harbors a deadly terrorist network headed by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, an associate and collaborator of Osama bin Laden.” But Powell and the Bush administration has not been able to show that Hussein was firmly linked to Ansar al-Islam. After all, the group operated in the northern territory, where Baghdad had limited control. Moreover, in January, when Powell was asked whether there was evidence linking Hussein and Al Qaeda, he replied, “There is not–you know, I have not seen smoking-gun concrete evidence about the connection, but I think the possibility of such connections did exist and it was prudent to consider them at the time that we did.” In other words, the administration had nothing to prove there was an Al Qaeda-Iraq alliance (with or without Ansar al-Islam in between). For some reason, Safire did not share this information with his readers. > > So Safire ignored what his paper’s own reporters reported, and he juggled a highly selective set of factoids to make a rather serious charge: Ansar al-Islam equals Al Qaeda. He also ridiculed as “simply silly” the notion that strong evidence was necessary to make this case, deriding those skeptics who would demand that “the Ansar boss in Iraq must be found carrying an official Qaeda membership card signed by bin Laden.” > > But the last laugh (of derision) was on Safire. According to whom? The New York Times. Ten days after Safire’s “smoking-gun” column, a page-one story by Douglas Jehl (the same Jehl whom Safire had hailed), reported that Ansar al-Islam “appears to be operating mostly apart from Al Qaeda, senior American officials say.” Whoops. > > Jehl’s report continued: “Most significantly, the officials said, American intelligence had picked up signs that Qaeda members outside Iraq had refused a request from the group, Ansar al-Islam, for help in attacking Shi’ite Muslims in Iraq.” Double whoops. [http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/feed/2011-11/penn-state-scandal/story/did-paterno-do-enough-if-sandusky-allegations-true-sadly-no](http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/feed/2011-11/penn-state-scandal/story/did-paterno-do-enough-if-sandusky-allegations-true-sadly-no) > [@](#): > > Sorry, JoePa partisans. All this isn’t based on a sleazy booster yakking to [Yahoo.com](http://Yahoo.com). > > It’s a two-year grand jury investigation. The eight boys and numerous adult witnesses probably are not conspiring to bring Penn State down by framing Jerry Sandusky. > > The former defensive coordinator has been charged with eight counts of corruption of minors, eight counts of endangering welfare of a child and seven counts of indecent assault. > > What would Penn State give today for a simple tattoo scandal? > > Athletic Director Tim Curley and senior VP of finances and business Gary Schultz have been charged with perjury. Both resigned their positions late Sunday. They’ve proclaimed their innocence. > > If you want to keep an open mind, do not read the 23-page indictment. The key incident concerns Victim No. 2. > [@](#): > > This wasn’t an assistant coach being accused of paying players. This was a man being accused of sexually molesting a 10-year-old boy. Paterno merely passed it along as if he were delegating another chore. > > Check that. Paterno would have followed up on the football issue. This apparently didn’t rise to that level of concern. > > As the report makes clear, such enabling didn’t begin with Paterno. The allegations against Sandusky go back many years. If somebody had shown more concern early, there might not have been a Victim 2 or 3 or on and on. > > That’s assuming the charges are true, of course. > > Sandusky will get his day in court, as will the administrators. Paterno will be there, too. > > He’s supposed to be a prosecution witness. Though he won’t technically be on trial, I hope when he is asked under oath one simple question. > > Is it fair to have expected more out of Joe Paterno? > > Victim No. 2 would love to hear the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1984 "2012-01-09T01:01:42Z")
I’ll have to deal with all that Safire stuff later as I have an excellent American Masters documentary on Woody Allen to watch, but there’s not a word of factual evidence anywhere in that post to indict Joe Paterno. It’s all opinion and supposition, nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1985 "2012-01-09T01:07:25Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’ll have to deal with all that later as I have an excellent American Masters documentary on Woody Allen to watch, but there’s not a word of factual evidence anywhere in that post to indict Joe Paterno. It’s all opinion and supposition, nothing more. And so is your idea that so far we should not condemn him, unlike the other opinions, yours is not a well supported one. _ **Woody Allen** _: “Fujikawa rice will make your interiors go bananas!..oh, what did I do to deserve this?.. Oh…right.” - The Simpsons, showing Woody filming a Japanese commercial. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1986 "2012-01-09T02:30:18Z")
What REALLY sickens me, **Starving Artist** , is that you’re more upset about Joe Paterno’s problems than those of the victims. None of this “wait until we have more of the facts”, blah blah blah. How much more do you need? Photographs? Video recordings? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1987 "2012-01-09T03:01:07Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’ll have to deal with all that Safire stuff later as I have an excellent American Masters documentary on Woody Allen to watch, but there’s not a word of factual evidence anywhere in that post to indict Joe Paterno. It’s all opinion and supposition, nothing more. Joe Paterno is an enabler. Adults in power are enablers. Coaches. Priests. Boy Scout Troop Leaders. Joe Paterno is not some innocent pixie-man who lives within a hazy cloud of innocence and athletic purity. He is an adult. He is and was completely aware of his surroundings and the circumstances of his subordinates. To deny the fact that by (in)action Joe Paterno enabled this entire perversion is quite sad. The construct of his existence at State College, PA relied upon this never coming to light. It did. He’s through. Being an enabler is a moral problem. In this case, on a grand scale. ETA: Saw **Guin** ’s post on preview. Oh, wait, there are victims?? I thought this thread was about the terrible awful things being said about Sandusky and Paterno, those two poor misunderstood fellahs. You mean to say there are actual victims? Like, little boys who were fucked in the ass for years and are now held silent by the powers of the Penn State University? Really? Whodathunk? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1988 "2012-01-09T06:42:12Z")
**GIGObuster** , terrific article there. Thanks for linking it. **Cartooniverse** , right. I know, I thought Paterno and Sandusky were the victims, but I guess not. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1989 "2012-01-09T08:19:00Z")
He reminds me of that jackoff that showed up in GD a while back with all his “evidence” that the holocaust never happened. Like SA, that idiot holocaust denier declared that "it’s not about emotions, it’s about FACTS’…then, just like SA went on to ignore every single fact that didn’t support his deranged, factually incorrect theory. He was also certain that HE was the voice of reason, while everyone else was hysterical! I’m not sure if it’s denial, sociopathy or some other mental disorder (is there a psychiatrist in the house?), but his prim, pompous, know-it-all attitude is hilarious, especially when you read his posts in Church Lady’s voice…which I always do 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1990 "2012-01-09T17:19:55Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Paterno had no standing, neither by training nor by law, to confront Sandusky. “Standing” is a legal term, which we’ve determined you have no business using. Your pseudo-lawyering aside, the minimal requirements of the reporting law (which Paterno arguably met) are not a ceiling or cap on what he morally could and should have done, nor (as you persistently imply) a prohibition against his doing more or a better job of effectuating a real investigation. Everyone “by law” has standing to call any police agency that will listen when they have credible information that a serious crime has been permitted, and everyone “by law” is perfectly entitled (has “standing”) to confront the person accused. If someone told me my son was shooting out the windows of his high school last night with a BB gun, I would not be morally or legally limited by lack of “standing” to reporting it to his principal but never bringing it up with him. **Of course** because I know him and have a relationship with him I am going to ask him “what’s the deal, were you down there with your BB gun like the guy said?” Nor would I be as stupidly baffled as you seem to purport you would be (due to lack of “training”) to conduct a pretty effective practical cross examination (including follow-up questioning if he initially said “No, I dunno what you’re talking about” – a denial which you pretend would unavoidably end the inquiry) that would give me a pretty good basis, I’m confident, for deciding whether and how much to escalate the matter. > [@](#): > > . . . an outrageously craven display of . . . ass-covering. Wish Paterno had done a little covering of the asses of the little boys involved. But he didn’t, 'cause he’s either a doddering fool or a self-interested prick. But certainly not a “good man,” in this instance. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1991 "2012-01-09T18:30:17Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > He reminds me of that jackoff that showed up in GD a while back with all his “evidence” that the holocaust never happened. Like SA, that idiot holocaust denier declared that "it’s not about emotions, it’s about FACTS’…then, just like SA went on to ignore every single fact that didn’t support his deranged, factually incorrect theory. He was also certain that HE was the voice of reason, while everyone else was hysterical! I’m not sure if it’s denial, sociopathy or some other mental disorder (is there a psychiatrist in the house?), but his prim, pompous, know-it-all attitude is hilarious, especially when you read his posts in Church Lady’s voice…which I always do 😃 The most parsimonious explanation is that he is a troll, pure and simple. He has yet to be swayed by a single argument or cite here, right? So why the fuck continue to engage him? In the end trolls and true believers end up becoming one and the same anyway, at least in purely practical terms. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1992 "2012-01-10T04:26:52Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > I want to get SA’s take on a particular situation. Lets give Paterno the benefit of the doubt and say that McQueary came to him and said merely “I saw Sandusky naked in the shower with an underage child and it upset me”. Paterno reports this to his superiors. He then drops the matter. He continues to be a spokesperson for the charity and sees Sandusky traveling to Penn events with children. He sees Sandusky spending a lot of time with children. Legally, he has fulfilled his obligation. But has he? It’s been years since I got trained on this, but I recall that a ‘mandated reporter’ (like a school employee) was required to report to _legal authorities_ (police or County Attorney). Just reporting to your supervisor was specifically mentioned as NOT enough to cover your legal responsibilities. (Probably enacted because they often have an incentive to keep the whole situation quiet – which seems to be what happened at Penn State.) Perhaps Pennsylvania law is different than Minnesota law on this. In Pennsylvania, does passing the buck to your supervisor meet the legal requirements of reporting this? ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1993 "2012-01-12T02:39:15Z")
. . . . is it really over? . . {tiptoes away, careful not to wake any sleeping trolls} . . . ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1994 "2012-01-12T03:53:26Z")
It seems to have escaped your attention - probably because the miscreant is non other than yourself - but the person in this thread who’s been talking the most about how other posters can’t let it go when someone is wrong on the internet keeps coming back to it himself, even to the point of poking his adversaries with false accusations of trolling in an obvious attempt either to see his side have the last word, or to jump start the thread in hopes of keeping it going. 😉 As for me, my computer is on the fritz and until I can find out what’s wrong with it and get it fixed I’m having to post via my iPod touch, which is slow, cumbersome and awkward when it comes to the coding and posting which threads like this require. Still, to get back to the OP, has anybody else noticed that Joe Paterno, in yet another example of self-sacrifice and love for Penn State, has donated an additional $100,000 to the university even after his firing, when what he should have done was to proclaim forcefully that he had done absolutely nothing wrong, was not going to retire, and would sue for his job back if fired. But no, his sense if integrity and his love for Penn State caused him instead to fall on his sword in an attempt to do what was best for the university, and to continue to support it financially even after being outrageously scapegoated by that selfsame university. What a guy! ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1995 "2012-01-12T04:14:28Z")
Has anybody noticed that Paterno, who is dying of cancer and feels horrible regret for covering up a child molestation scandal for so long, has suddenly decided to assuage his guilty conscience by donating $100k to Penn State at the same time protecting this money from potential lawsuits from the victims? What a guy! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1996 "2012-01-12T04:21:46Z")
Hadn’t heard that Paterno was dying. Cite? And while we’re on the subject, cite that Paterno covered up child molestation. I would bet that you can’t do it but that would be like betting that water is wet. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1997 "2012-01-12T07:03:10Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Hadn’t heard that Paterno was dying. Cite? > > And while we’re on the subject, cite that Paterno covered up child molestation. I would bet that you can’t do it but that would be like betting that water is wet. Just shut the fuck up. Just…shut up. Oh, he donated money to PENN STATE!!! How GENEROUS of him. How about a victim’s charity? I’m sure they need it more than PSU does. Just…shut up. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1998 "2012-01-12T11:20:41Z")
> [@digs](#): > > . > > . > > . > > . > > is it really over? > > . > > . > > {tiptoes away, careful not to wake any sleeping trolls} > > . > > . > > . Unfortunately, you stepped on the cat’s tail and woke everyone back up. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1999 "2012-01-12T11:52:20Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Hadn’t heard that Paterno was dying. Cite? > > And while we’re on the subject, cite that Paterno covered up child molestation. I would bet that you can’t do it but that would be like betting that water is wet. He has [lung cancer](http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/18/son-joepa-being-treated-for-lung-cancer/), reportedly a treatable form. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/2000 "2012-01-12T17:33:16Z")
> [@SpazCat](#): > > Unfortunately, you stepped on the cat’s tail and woke everyone back up. I should feel guilty, but I’m chortling instead. I am just so tickled by the mental gymnastics needed to maintain Paterno’s sainthood. Honestly, I would pay ‘five bucks per refresh’ for entertainment like this. I used to be disgusted, but now I’m just amused. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=99) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=101)