# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 118
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/2341 "2012-01-27T13:34:24Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I believe it’s also a perfectly valid term for general discussion as well. Of course if you have a definitive cite otherwise… Nothing definitive, of course, because definitive negative proofs are pretty scarce, but Alexander Hamilton said, while discussing language for the constitution, “The words ‘due process’ have a precise technical import, and are only applicable to the process and proceedings of the courts of justice.” [Link.](http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendV_due_processs13.html) And of course you know that the phrase entered popular discourse in the 5th amendment as “due process **of law** ”. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/2342 "2012-01-27T13:57:10Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > So, spotlight’s on you boy, time to shine. Just where have I made a mistake, and how can you demonstrate that it is? > [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > What I want to know is, how do Paterno’s reporting obligations (morally now, not just legally) change if McQueary had gone to him and said, “Coach, I saw Sandusky raping a child in the locker room shower”. How does that obligation differ from, say, “Coach, I saw Sandusky performing oral sex on a ten year old boy,” or, “I saw Sandusky fondling the genitals of a ten year old boy.” > Because the focus on “rape or not rape” is really not the issue, and **Starving** knows that. I would like an answer to this. I think you’ve been thoroughly beaten on many of these points, so you’ve resorted to your typical “well I’m going to go wash my hair / do the laundry / watch television with my family _while you bloodthirsty loons continue to besmirch the good name of Paterno with nothing better to do_” line. You have argued that morality is subjective. Your exact words were “a matter of opinion”, which is the very definition of relativism, and yet you claim that you are not actually saying anything of the sort. You still claim that Paterno thought he was doing the right thing at the time, therefore he did nothing wrong. You have argued that it wasn’t even physically possible for Sandusky to be raping a boy, despite the fact that multiple accusers have come forth to say that yes, they were raped by Sandusky. You have also gon to great lengths to minimize what McQueary testified to during the grand jury hearing, pretending it was just the sounds he heard and that couldn’t have been sex. You’ve glossed over the testimony of reporting to Paterno “something of a sexual nature with a 10 year old boy”. These are inextricable facts, you don’t get to accept one and deny the other. Paterno himself said that he wish he’d done more. Whether it be because he got fired for his lapse of judgment, because the university is now synonymous with enabling child rapists, or because he feels bad about all those kids he let down, he agrees that it was a lapse of judgment. You still, however, do not. You’re claiming over and over again that Paterno didn’t know it was that serious, didn’t hear the word rape, didn’t understand rape, that McQueary didn’t tell him exactly what was seen…however Paterno took it seriously enough to conduct himself in a way which satisfied his legal reporting requirements for the report of sexual contact with a child. So how can he simultaneously not have thought McQueary was telling the truth, or didn’t receive enough information to believe it was sexual in nature, but also believe it substantially enough to follow the legal protocol for the reporting of a suspected sex crime? It would stand to reason that if he were the recipient of information that did not appear to claim sexual contact with a child, he would not conduct himself as though he had received information that appeared to claim sexual contact with a child. Your contention is not supported by his actions in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/2343 "2012-01-27T14:00:33Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > So all things considered I’m more certain than ever that whatever it was that was going on in that shower, it almost certainly was not anal rape, and was more likely something skeevy but not necessarily damaging to the child such as a faux-innocent hug or faux-innocent wrestling or horseplay. Well, I’m convinced. What a relief! Thank you, Inspector Starving Artist, for your ceaseless hours of original research, crime scene recreations, re-interviews (or at least reinterpretations), and so on. Paterno’s a hero again! Let’s have a celebratory parade! And as a side note, it sounds like Sandusky is innocent after all. Let’s have a “All is forgiven… no wait, there’s nothing to forgive, Jerry” parade, too! And I’ve conducted my own research – not as exhaustive as Starving’s, of course, but diligent, I swear! – on other applications of the “[slippery adjective] but not necessarily damaging” construction that unequivocally exonerated ol’ Jerry and Joe. And guess what? It turns out that _liberalism_ is “more likely something overly permissive but not necessarily damaging”! Hooray! More parades! (No need to thank me, Mr. Artist, for exorcising the cause of all your mental anguish for the last four decades – it’s the least I could do after you conclusively demonstrated the innocence of Sandusky and Paterno.) Your turn, friends! What other misconceptions can you correct, now that you’re armed with the fact-based “[slippery adjective] but not necessarily damaging” weapon? Have at it! If it’s powerful enough to devastatingly explain away McQueary’s observation that he saw something “of a sexual nature,” it can explain away anything. Go ahead, give it a try! ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/2344 "2012-01-27T14:47:32Z")
Right, and the exact physics of what happened in that shower are important because that’s the act that Paterno had a chance to stop. Oh, wait - no he didn’t - the things he could have stopped were the rapes that happened later. You know, the ones that occurred because no one witht he knowledge of naked man on little boy action in the shower did anything to prevent it from occurring again. Guy: Some old dude was in the shower naked with a 10 year, and it seemd like they were up to some seriously skeevy shit. SA: Was he anally raping him? Guy: I don’t know, maybe. SA: Well, I don’t think the mechanics of that really work. He probably wasn’t raping him. Guy: So, do you think we have a moral responsibility to prevent that old guy from getting naked and "horsing around’ with more little boys in our shower? SA: No. yeah, dude - you might want to see if you can get a refund on your moral compass. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/2345 "2012-01-27T15:26:35Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > So all things considered I’m more certain than ever that whatever it was that was going on in that shower, it almost certainly was not anal rape, and was more likely something skeevy but not necessarily damaging to the child such as a faux-innocent hug or faux-innocent wrestling or horseplay. I was going to type up an actual reasoned response to this but my brain won’t let me and is instead insisting that I post the following: GROSS GROSS GROSS GROSS GROSS GROSS GROSS. GROSS. Seriously, dude. SERIOUSLY. GROSS. MY GOD. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/2346 "2012-01-27T15:46:09Z")
Man, he is batshit crazy. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/2347 "2012-01-27T16:57:01Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Where does my argument fail, and why? > > No point in that as it’s a completely different position involving different mechanics physically. Now if you want to propose a tape of a 6’3" (i.e., not just “tall”) man standing behind a woman the height of a ten year old boy, with his arm around her waist thrusting into her anally as she stands with her hands against the wall (and with no distress or discomfort apparent in her face, I might add), then perhaps we might talk. > > Btw, I just finished looking up McQueary’s testimony to the Grand Jury and he stated he heard two or three slaps. Hardly enough for a telltale rhythm. Could have been anything. Plus the Grand Jury report mentions an instance in 1998 when a woman reported Sandusky hugged her son in the shower. > > So all things considered I’m more certain than ever that whatever it was that was going on in that shower, it almost certainly was not anal rape, and was more likely something skeevy but not necessarily damaging to the child such as a faux-innocent hug or faux-innocent wrestling or horseplay. > > Frankly, I don’t know why you people are so cranked up. I would think that you’d be grateful instead to learn that the evidence indicates that that young boy wasn’t subjected to anal rape after all. I would think that would be a relief! Is your hatred for Sandusky so intense, and your desire to unthinkingly fly off the handle and jump to the worst sort of convlusions so strong, that you would prefer that young boy had been anally raped after all so long as it allows you to indulge your righteous outrage and your hatred for Jerry Sandusky and Joe Paterno? > > Seriously, you people need to re-examine your priorities here. Jesus. Can you genuinely not see how creepy and gross and weird you sound? Seriously. Step back a minute. Stop being stubborn and read your own posts as if someone else wrote them. The fetishistic, sweaty attention to detail? The creepily authoritiative pronouncements on what is and is not possible with regard to _anal rape_? The offhand mentions of things like “playing hide the soap,” as if that is something that people _do_? Look. Political opinions, opinions on Joe Paterno, whatever - when an overwhelming number of people tell you that you are coming across not just as wrong, but as actively _creepy_, are you really incapable of imagining that some of the fault might lie in you - if not in what you actually think, than in the way you’re choosing to express it? And, by the way, you’re wrong on points. The idea that a very tall man cannot have penetrative sex from behind while standing with a much shorter person is… counterfactual. I am certain that there are a fair number of people with anecdotal evidence proving this, but none of them want to say it in your presence because you _talk like a fucking sexual predator._ ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/2348 "2012-01-27T17:06:09Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Of course if you’d like to actually offer a rebuttal to disprove the possibility of some of the alternative scenarios I’ve mentioned That consist of something other than I’m an asshole, I’d be happy to consider them. Are you asking us to perform a science experiment to see if it’s possible for a man to anally rape a boy in the shower? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/2349 "2012-01-27T17:12:34Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Are you asking us to perform a science experiment to see if it’s possible for a man to anally rape a boy in the shower? It’s not what you think officer. You see, I post on this message board… ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/2350 "2012-01-27T17:16:26Z")
**Starving** will continue to come up with alternative scenarios, and continue to accuse everyone else of “not relying on the facts”. I’m out. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/2351 "2012-01-27T17:18:18Z")
It’s so freaking creepy that in order to continue pretending that Paterno was 100% infalliable - rather admitting that he made a horrible mistake in judgment - **SA** is reduced to trying to minimize - or worse, _justify_ - Sandusky’s crimes. ---
**Author:** ![ballardfam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8797f3/32.png) [@ballardfam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ballardfam)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/2352 "2012-01-27T17:20:58Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > And, by the way, you’re wrong on points. The idea that a very tall man cannot have penetrative sex from behind while standing with a much shorter person is… counterfactual. I am certain that there are a fair number of people with anecdotal evidence proving this, but none of them want to say it in your presence because you _talk like a fucking sexual predator._ Oh, I’ll go there. Not in detail, because that’s my business, but I’m in my fifties and was single & sexually active in the 70s, 80s & much of the 90s. I have experience. I have lots of experience. I have lots of varied experience. SA, you don’t know what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/2353 "2012-01-27T17:21:16Z")
He’s getting an awful lot of mileage out of that one post. That is some quality trolling right there. I am inspired. Heck, I’m gonna go start me a thread about fingerbanging housepets.\* I bet I could get loads of responses with minimal effort. \*No I am not. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/2354 "2012-01-27T17:25:20Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > He’s getting an awful lot of mileage out of that one post. That is some quality trolling right there. I am inspired. > > Heck, I’m gonna go start me a thread about fingerbanging housepets.\* I bet I could get loads of responses with minimal effort. > > \*No I am not. I had a gerbil on each finger _man_! ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/2355 "2012-01-27T17:51:09Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Do you really think a six-foot, three-inch sixty-something man could be having full-blown penetrative anal sex with a ten-year old boy in the manner McQueary thought he saw? To achieve penetration and thrusting action the man would have to be squatting so far down that his ass would be closer to the ground than his knees and he’d fall over backwards, pulling the kid with him - not to mention that his leg and back muscles would never stand the strain. > > Where is your critical thinking? I don’t know what McQueary heard (or for how long he heard it)- maybe just the slapping of feet on the floor attendant to wrestling, playing keep-a-way with the soap, or some sort of sexual activity not anal rape. Who knows what it was? But one thing I’d put money on is that it wasn’t penetrative anal sex. Maybe he has a micropenis ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/2356 "2012-01-27T18:31:23Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Where does my argument fail, and why? > > No point in that as it’s a completely different position involving different mechanics physically. Now if you want to propose a tape of a 6’3" (i.e., not just “tall”) man standing behind a woman the height of a ten year old boy, with his arm around her waist thrusting into her anally as she stands with her hands against the wall **(and with no distress or discomfort apparent in her face, I might add),** then perhaps we might talk. Where the FUCK are you getting the bolded part from? I don’t think the look on the boy’s face has been part of any testimony that I’m aware of. How do you know the victim had “no distress or discomfort apparent”? When people tell you that you sound like a pervert, this kind of stuff is why. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/2357 "2012-01-27T18:42:16Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > So all things considered I’m more certain than ever that whatever it was that was going on in that shower, it almost certainly was not anal rape, and was more likely something skeevy but not necessarily damaging to the child such as a faux-innocent hug or faux-innocent wrestling or horseplay. This has got to be the most jaw-droppingly awesome statement from **SA** since he asked, in all apparent seriousness, whether [Hillary Clinton would be a socialist dictator if elected President](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=411047). Bravo, sir. There will never be another like you (which, truth be told, is frankly a bit of a relief). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/2358 "2012-01-27T18:44:36Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I had a gerbil on each finger _man_! And yet it doesn’t affect your typing. Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/2359 "2012-01-27T18:44:59Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > It’s so freaking creepy that in order to continue pretending that Paterno was 100% infalliable - rather admitting that he made a horrible mistake in judgment - **SA** is reduced to trying to minimize - or worse, _justify_ - Sandusky’s crimes. Creepy, but not at all surprising. I’ve come to the conclusion that the reason Starving Artist yearns for the pre-sexual revolution era is that it was so much easier to sexually assault people when you could just shame them into believing it was all their fault. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/2360 "2012-01-27T18:52:07Z")
Well, we can’t be sure it was anal rape, because > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I would think that a grown man’s penis being forced up the anus of a ten year old child would result in screams of pain that could be heard all over campus. If the AD couldn’t hear it happening in his office, then it probably didn’t happen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=117) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=119)