# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/281 "2011-11-09T02:09:18Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > What the…I don’t… seriously, what? Maybe you could give us your rubric for appropriate levels of outrage for different types of offenses that could be committed by a naked 60-year-old man vs. a naked 10-year-old boy in a locker room. > > Better yet, don’t. I’m close enough to losing my dinner already from reading this thread. I was talking about the kind of thinking, expressed several times in this thread, which holds that one kind of child sex abuse is as bad as another. Am I supposed to let such nonsense lie simply because its proponent is outraged? The truth is still the truth no matter how righteously motivated its opponent. Are we supposed to be fighting ignorance here or just unthinkingly supporting nonsense because it favors our moral outrage? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/282 "2011-11-09T02:14:02Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Worst football program ever. Why they were ever let into the conference is beyond me. OK, THAT one got me laughing. Well played. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/283 "2011-11-09T02:15:22Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I was talking about the kind of thinking, expressed several times in this thread, which holds that one kind of child sex abuse is as bad as another. You want to give us a scale here? Is fondling not worth reporting? Is masturbating while watching a 10-year-old shower not worth reporting? Is oral sex not worth reporting? What are your criteria for a “reporting threshold”? ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/284 "2011-11-09T02:18:02Z")
Sandusky admitted to inappropriate sexual conduct in the 1998 incident. Joe Paterno had admitted that McQueary informed him of the behavior he witnessed between Sandusky and the child in 2002, and has admitted that he informed his superiors but did nothing else. McQueary has admitted that he informed Paterno of the behavior he witnessed between Sandusky and the child in 2002, and admitted that he didn’t follow up with Paterno to see where the investigation had gone from there. These are the FACTS that have already been admitted to by those three men involved. Even IF Sandusky is found completely innocent of all charges, these facts STILL indicate a shocking lack of “give a shit” about the possibility of child rape on the part of three men. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/285 "2011-11-09T02:22:39Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > You want to give us a scale here? Is fondling not worth reporting? Is masturbating while watching a 10-year-old shower not worth reporting? Is oral sex not worth reporting? What are your criteria for a “reporting threshold”? Yeah, and what’s the point of that sliding scale, when there is NO useful argument that physical sexual contact with a minor is ever not reportable, or less reportable, for the purposes of this story, which is, should JP have reported it. For purposes of deciding whether someone legally or morally had a duty of further invetigation, follow-up, it is like a step function or flowchart direction – “if plausible report of physical sexual contact, then must report/follow-up/verify/falsify.” The **severity** of the criminal contact is really a matter for the prosecution’s charging papers and the prosecutor’s sentencing argument at trial. Paterno would have no business making such gradations of severity when deciding whether to report further, call law enforcement, follow-up. Oh, by the way, is Joe wracked with grief, about to apologize or resign? Are the idiot PSU faithful so mortified that they’ve rallied in outrage? Enquiring minds want to know! [http://www.wwtdd.com/2011/11/joe-paterno-doesnt-give-a-fk/](http://www.wwtdd.com/2011/11/joe-paterno-doesnt-give-a-fk/) ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/286 "2011-11-09T02:24:19Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > You want to give us a scale here? Is fondling not worth reporting? Is masturbating while watching a 10-year-old shower not worth reporting? Is oral sex not worth reporting? What are your criteria for a “reporting threshold”? When did I say that certain forms of child sex abuse should be exempt from being reported? Oh, yeah, it must have been when I said purse-snatching didn’t warrant calling the police. I swear though that I can’t remember doing either one. Perhaps you could point me to it? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/287 "2011-11-09T02:27:29Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > When did I say that certain forms of child sex abuse should be exempt from being reported? Oh, yeah, it must have been when I said purse-snatching didn’t warrant calling the police. I swear though that I can’t remember doing either one. Perhaps you could point me to it? You keep saying that Paterno’s contention that he didn’t get the _details_ of what actually went on excused his lack of follow-up and reportage to actual law enforcement. That’s your whole argument. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > It hasn’t been proven exactly what Paterno was told or how bad he thought it was, or whether he questioned in his own mind if it even happened at all, given what an unlikely scenario it was to begin with. As I said last night, it’s entirely possible for coaches to get crosswise and lie about each other. > > And speaking of hysteria, yes, there is a hell of a lot of difference in various types of sexual contact with children. Certainly they are all wrong, but there’s a good deal more damage done, psychologically and physically, by anally raping a child as opposed to snapping illicit photos of them in the nude. Both are repulsive and both are child sex abuse, but to claim they are equivalent morally or in terms of damage to the child is ridiculous. It’s like claiming that knifing someone is as bad as slapping them. Both are assaults and both are crimes and both should be punished, but to say one is as bad as the other is nothing but hysteria. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/288 "2011-11-09T02:33:30Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I was talking about the kind of thinking, expressed several times in this thread, which holds that one kind of child sex abuse is as bad as another. Am I supposed to let such nonsense lie simply because its proponent is outraged? The truth is still the truth no matter how righteously motivated its opponent. Are we supposed to be fighting ignorance here or just unthinkingly supporting nonsense because it favors our moral outrage? All types of child sexual assault are ILLEGAL. All kinds. Every bit of it. NONE of it is ok. None of it is legal. Whether or not JP was told “anal rape” or “sexual interaction” DOES NOT MATTER. Either action is illegal when done by a adult male to a child. Whether one offense is “as bad as another” makes no difference. It has nothing to do with moral outrage. It should have been reported to the police. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/289 "2011-11-09T02:52:56Z")
I’m with **Starving Artist** here. Joe Pa has been coaching at Penn State since before I was born and I have always had the highest respect for the man. I can’t possibly believe that someone ran into his office, told him he saw a 10 year old boy being anally violated, and Joe Pa just shrugged his shoulders. I’m going to give him every benefit of the doubt until I get the “GOP Senators talk to Nixon” moment where the evidence is overwhelming that he was complicit. I am shocked to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/290 "2011-11-09T02:55:36Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Oh, by the way, is Joe wracked with grief, about to apologize or resign? Are the idiot PSU faithful so mortified that they’ve rallied in outrage? Enquiring minds want to know! > > [Joe Paterno Doesnt Give A Fk](http://www.wwtdd.com/2011/11/joe-paterno-doesnt-give-a-fk/) That is one of the most disturbing videos I have ever seen. Blind allegiance, stupidity, lack of moral character and denial all packed into a couple of minutes. Talk about wanting to lose your dinner . . . But then, there are those out there that still worship Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/291 "2011-11-09T03:02:33Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I’m going to give him every benefit of the doubt until I get the “GOP Senators talk to Nixon” moment where the evidence is overwhelming that he was complicit. I am shocked to say the least. Are you not getting it? That evidence is already here. Did you even read the indictment? I can’t say it more clearly than this: This is what Paterno swore to under oath – in his own words: > [@](#): > > Joseph V. Paterno testified to receiving the graduate assistants report at his home on a Saturday morning. Paterno testified that the graduate assistant was very upset. Paterno called Tim Curley, Penn State Athletic Director and Paternos immediate superior to his home the very next day, a Sunday, and reported to him that the graduate assistant had seen Jerry Sandusky in the Lasch Building showers fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy.” Game over. The people here who are blaming him, are blaming him not based on speculation (my speculation is that McQuery told him specifically that there was anal intercourse). They are blaming him on the theory that BY HIS OWN ADMISSION, he knew about at least “fondling or . . . something of a sexual nature to a young boy,” and that they (the upset posters) think Paterno had a moral (if not legal) obligation to do something more than report it up the chain and then wash his hands of it, even when it became clear that his “superiors” weren’t going to do anything and that this scumbag was still free and still working with kids and still on Penn State premises. You may not agree with this subjective moral judgment (though I can’t understand anyone who doesnt’t) but the premise that those holding that judgment need to “wait till all the facts are in” or “withold judgment” or “give Joe the benefit of the doubt” is indisputably just wrong. There is NO additional fact that could or would or is necessary to make the “Joe must go” argument – the only facts that could arise would be ones that only reinforce it, because the argument is based on, and requires, nothing other than his own sworn testimony. I swear this is like trying to explain Euclid to three year olds. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/292 "2011-11-09T03:11:48Z")
Everyone who saw the guy raping kids and just walked away? Punk-ass bitches, all of 'em. A 911 call can be made anonymously, if you’re that scared to do something right then and there. It’s just not defensible behavior. And it’s a shame that the victimized boys have turned out to be far braver than these so-called “great” men. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/293 "2011-11-09T03:11:51Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Are you not getting it? That evidence is already here. Did you even read the indictment? I can’t say it more clearly than this: This is what Paterno swore to under oath – in his own words: > > Game over. The people here who are blaming him, are blaming him not based on speculation (my speculation is that McQuery told him specifically that there was anal intercourse). They are blaming him on the theory that BY HIS OWN ADMISSION, he knew about at least “fondling or . . . something of a sexual nature to a young boy,” and that they (the upset posters) think Paterno had a moral (if not legal) obligation to do something more than report it up the chain and then wash his hands of it, even when it became clear that his “superiors” weren’t going to do anything and that this scumbag was still free and still working with kids and still on Penn State premises. You may not agree with this subjective moral judgment (though I can’t understand anyone who doesnt’t) but the premise that those holding that judgment need to “wait till all the facts are in” or “withold judgment” or “give Joe the benefit of the doubt” is indisputably just wrong. There is NO additional fact that could or would or is necessary to make the “Joe must go” argument – the only facts that could arise would be ones that only reinforce it, because the argument is based on, and requires, nothing other than his own sworn testimony. > > I swear this is like trying to explain Euclid to three year olds. I think you nailed it. Until anyone retracts anything of substance of their “sworn testimony” it is clear that JP, the Athletic Dept. and anyone else that had any knowledge of the situation are culpable.They’ve already testified. We, the outraged, are going by that testimony, not stuff that we are imagining. We don’t have to make stuff up. It’s already on record as sworn testimony. If the testimony is inaccurate then show us why. Don’t blame the outraged ones for believing it. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/294 "2011-11-09T03:14:23Z")
Man, I’m shocked! I had no idea Penn State was a Catholic school… ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/295 "2011-11-09T03:15:17Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Game over. The people here who are blaming him, are blaming him not based on speculation (my speculation is that McQuery told him specifically that there was anal intercourse). They are blaming him on the theory that BY HIS OWN ADMISSION, he knew about at least “fondling or . . . something of a sexual nature to a young boy,” and that they (the upset posters) think Paterno had a moral (if not legal) obligation to do something more than report it up the chain and then wash his hands of it, even when it became clear that his “superiors” weren’t going to do anything and that this scumbag was still free and still working with kids and still on Penn State premises. You may not agree with this subjective moral judgment (though I can’t understand anyone who doesnt’t) but the premise that those holding that judgment need to “wait till all the facts are in” or “withold judgment” or “give Joe the benefit of the doubt” is indisputably just wrong. There is NO additional fact that could or would or is necessary to make the “Joe must go” argument – the only facts that could arise would be ones that only reinforce it, because the argument is based on, and requires, nothing other than his own sworn testimony. > > I swear this is like trying to explain Euclid to three year olds. THIS. Jesus christ on a rubber pogo stick, my CAT can follow factual information better than some of the people in this thread. The FACT that Paterno was told that McQueary witnessed sexual behavior between Sandusky and a child is NOT IN DISPUTE. The fact that Paterno notified his superiors but did nothing else to follow up is NOT IN DISPUTE. The great one himself has admitted to those things. I don’t want to devolve into a wall of **Stoid** -like text here, but I really do feel that there are some people in this thread who are simply not reading anything anyone is typing, and who have not bothered to read any of the grand jury report at all. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/296 "2011-11-09T03:20:55Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > Man, I’m shocked! I had no idea Penn State was a Catholic school… It’s not. It’s a Land Grant school. Nonetheless, when Joe Pa is forced out it allows him to be elected Pope. He would be perfect for the job. Old, addled, male, white, Italian, and an enabler of child abuse. I now understand the signs we used to see, “ **Paterno for Pope** ”. :smack: Can someone give us a photoshop? ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/297 "2011-11-09T03:20:56Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > I don’t want to devolve into a wall of **Stoid** -like text here, but I really do feel that there are some people in this thread who are simply not reading anything anyone is typing, and who have not bothered to read any of the grand jury report at all. Yes but you know that happens all the time around here. And the scary part? We have to **hope** that your assumption **is** true, because the alternative is that there are really people here who think there are some forms of ADMITTED, MULTIPLY-WITNESSED, PLAUSIBLE ALLEGATIONS OF SEXUAL CONTACT WITH A CHILD that would leave someone on the fence over what one was obligated to do or whether follow-up was necessary, make you take a “let’s just see where he’s going with this sexual contact before doing anything too rash” approach. Fortunately, Occam argues in favor of ignorance and unwillingness to review the facts and arguments based thereon. I hope that’s it. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/298 "2011-11-09T03:21:34Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Game over. The people here who are blaming him, are blaming him not based on speculation (my speculation is that McQuery told him specifically that there was anal intercourse). I have the same belief because it’s the only thing that makes sense. If you’re leveling an accusation against someone higher up the food chain than you are, you aren’t going to be vague and tip-toe around the big enchilada. No, you’re going to lay out exactly what you saw because you don’t want your boss to think you’re making a big deal out of nothing and trying to sabotage someone’s career over petty stuff. People don’t drive out to their boss’s house in distress just to pussy-foot. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/299 "2011-11-09T03:40:54Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I’m with **Starving Artist** here. Joe Pa has been coaching at Penn State since before I was born and I have always had the highest respect for the man. I’m not going to bother addressing the illogic of suggesting that this fact justifies changing the public record. I’m just going to point out that the more I think of this, the more none of Paterno’s real achievements (winning a bunch of games, avoiding NCAA sanctions, trying to make his players act civilized) could EVER (assuming we are in a counterfactual world in which good behavior A excuses bad behavior B) somehow counterbalance his failings here. Putting aside some challenge in his personal or professional life that was remarkably traumatic and difficult and that we don’t know about – THIS situation was the single biggest challenge to Joe Paterno as a man that he’s ever faced. That he was too weak, or too stupid, or too old to think that more needed to be done (less could hardly have been done by him without actively covering up) means he FAILED at a challenge that meant more than the Fiesta Bowl, more than all the games he ever won. Judge not lest ye be judged, but public figures are rightly held to a high standard, and just as I wouldn’t make the argument that the worst thing I’ve ever done is explained away, or not bad, or probably didn’t happen, because I’m nice to my Mom and volunteer with charities, I can’t let that kind of argument or denial be applied to Joe P. Most of us don’t have a statue of us up, and most of us have failed badly, but when I hear people suggesting nothing bad happened or that Paterno should get a pass or some fictitious “benefit of the doubt” (when there is no doubt) I get the urge to deface his statue so the legend reads “Joe Paterno – He Failed As A Human Being.” And feel free to put that on my statue when I get one and if you think and can present an argument for why my worst moment was worse than all my good moments were good, which Lord knows maybe you would. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/300 "2011-11-09T03:47:54Z")
My god and goddess, someone please check the temperature down below, because I agree 100% with **Huerta88** in post #299. And that’s truly a first. Multiple grown men have admitted that over multiple occasions they either ignored, downplayed, or condoned child rape. Those are facts, admitted by the men in question. I really don’t know how much clearer the issues of moral culpability can be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=16)