# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 187
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3722 "2012-06-26T17:33:59Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Not sure how you get there. Curley and Schultz are charged with a failure to report and perjury IIRC. The ultimate truthfullness of the thing they were required to report/testify about is meaningless. The question will become whether or not a “reasonable person” would have believed that some abuse that hit the required erporting threshold had happened. That’s a MUCH lower bar than “beyond a reasonable doubt” and, in this particular case IMHO is a slam-dunk “YES!!!”. See my prior post. To the extent that the jury accepts that McQueary told a different version of events to Dranov than he now proclaims, that strengthens C&S’ claims that he told them too a different version. Your have your argument backwords. Sandusky can be 100% guilty of every count, but as long as C&S are not lying about their version of what McQueary told them at the time, they walk. In the SAndusky case, the jury considered Sandusky’s likely guilt in that particular incident in light of what they knew about Sandusky from the other incidents. In the C&S case, it’s just a matter of McQueary’s word against theirs regarding this one incident. ---
**Author:** ![Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ian_D.Bergkamp)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3723 "2012-06-26T17:59:01Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I think you’re probably guessing wrong. Sandusky was found guilty of “involuntary deviate sexual intercourse” WRT Victim 8 who was also not present to testify (he was the one observed by the janitor). > > The jury reviewed McQueary’s and Dranov’s testimony in the jury room, and I would guess that their verdict reflected some uncertainty over McQueary’s testimony to the extent that he appeared to contradict Dranov, which does bode well for the others. (For Victim 2, he was convicted of “indecent assault, unlawful contact with minor, corruption of minors, endangering a child’s welfare” - see [http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/jerry-sandusky-guilty-victims-a-breakdown-counts-jury-found-guilty-article-1.1101164.](http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/jerry-sandusky-guilty-victims-a-breakdown-counts-jury-found-guilty-article-1.1101164.)) Maybe, but [one juror](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/24/sports/ncaafootball/no-doubt-about-jerry-sanduskys-guilt-juror-says.html?_r=1&hp) has come forward to say that McQueary’s testimony was “the grimmest and most signficant.” (Those aren’t the juror’s exact words, but come from the linked New York Times article.) And, according to the New York Times, “the jury believed McQueary saw something that night, and while it couldn’t be proven beyond a reasonable doubt he had witnessed a full-on rape, there was no doubting what McQueary had stumbled upon was criminal.” I think that pretty clearly supports my guess. As for Victim 8, the testimony was slightly more detailed. [James Calhoun](http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2012/06/13/mcquearys_father_takes_stand_judge_permits_hearsay_testimony_about_victim_8.aspx) told others that he had seen Sandusky “pushing” Victim 8 against the shower. The jury apparently felt that was enough to support the “involuntary” element of the charge. McQueary, as far as I can tell, just told the jury he saw Sandusky and Victim 2 [engaging in a sex act](http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-sandusky-jury-20120622,0,2405433.story). I don’t see any testimony about pushing or any other use of force. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3724 "2012-06-26T19:50:39Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > I am curious to know how his wife reacted to the verdict. [Send her a PM](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php) and ask her for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3725 "2012-06-26T21:40:52Z")
- snerk \* ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3726 "2012-06-26T22:07:51Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > I am curious to know how his wife reacted to the verdict. Also, how long will it be before the focus shifts to her? Kids abused in their home and their own son? Something is really fishy there. As I said today in another thread, it wouldn’t surprise me if she was his first victim. OTOH, it wouldn’t surprise me if she knew and didn’t care. Or, hell, maybe helped the man. What I _can’t_ buy is her professed complete lack of knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3727 "2012-06-26T22:13:47Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Naw, death is too good for the bastard. I’d rather see him rot for a long, long time. Ditto. Let him rot. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3728 "2012-06-27T03:56:09Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > - snerk \* - snerk \* snerk \* snerk \* ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3729 "2012-06-27T03:58:47Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Your have your argument backwords. Sandusky can be 100% guilty of every count, but as long as C&S are not lying about their version of what McQueary told them at the time, they walk. In the SAndusky case, the jury considered Sandusky’s likely guilt in that particular incident in light of what they knew about Sandusky from the other incidents. In the C&S case, it’s just a matter of McQueary’s word against theirs regarding this one incident. That’s the jury’s job. It is _not_ the job of required reporters to weigh the evidence. And it is certainly not their job to weigh the evidence, and then lie about it before a grand jury. Again, the ultimate truth of the allegations are meaningless when the crime charged is that “you are supposed to report allegations”. ---
**Author:** ![Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ian_D.Bergkamp)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3730 "2012-06-30T12:34:23Z")
[CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/30/justice/penn-state-emails/index.html?iref=allsearch) is reporting some new developments in the perjury case against Schultz and Curley. It’s a lengthy piece, but here are some of the more interesting excerpts. These all relate to the incident reported by McQueary: > [@](#): > > The messages indicate former Penn State President Graham Spanier and two other former university officials knew they had a problem with Sandusky after a 2001 shower incident, but apparently first decided to handle it using a “humane” approach before contacting outside authorities whose job it is to investigate suspected abuse. > [@](#): > > In an exchange of messages from February 26-28, 2001, Spanier allegedly acknowledges Penn State could be “vulnerable” for not reporting the incident, according to two sources with knowledge of the case. “The only downside for us is if the message (to Sandusky) isn’t ‘heard’ and acted upon, and we then become vulnerable for not having reported it,” Spanier purportedly writes. > [@](#): > > Curley refers to a meeting scheduled that day with Spanier and indicates they apparently discussed the Sandusky incident two days earlier. Curley indicates he no longer wants to contact child welfare authorities just yet. He refers to a conversation the day before with Paterno. It’s not known what Paterno may have said to Curley. Curley writes: “After giving it more thought and talking it over with Joe yesterday, I am uncomfortable with what we agreed were the next steps.” The athletic director apparently preferred to keep the situation an internal affair and talk things over with Sandusky instead of notifying the state’s child welfare agency to investigate Sandusky’s suspicious activity. The exchanges certainly make Spanier, Schultz, and Curley (and potentially Paterno as well) look pretty bad. [It’s worth noting that CNN did not review copies of the actual emails, but claims the content was “made available” to them.] ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3731 "2012-06-30T15:46:08Z")
Meanwhile, let’s not lose sight of the university’s board of trustees, and their staggering incompetence in handling the whole mess. [Walter Brasch](http://www.walterbrasch.com/aboutwalter.html), who self-describes as a social issues journalist, has [a diary up at Booman Tribune](http://www.boomantribune.com/?op=displaystory;sid=2012/6/30/7626/42456) wherein he tears them to shreds for their repeated bungling. The piece is sympathetic to Paterno, so take that into account in evaluating it, but well worth a full read. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3732 "2012-06-30T16:16:30Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > … The piece is … well worth a full read. No, actually it’s not. It has no real facts at all, other than some already public quotes by members of the board of trustees, and makes claims but offers no evidence in support of them about the rationales for the board’s actions. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3733 "2012-06-30T21:16:59Z")
Assuming that CNN article is accurate, Paterno was clearly dishonest when he said that once he reported the incident “that was the last time the matter was brought to my attention until this investigation and I assumed that the men I referred it to handled the matter appropriately.” The conversation referred to in the email was 16 days later. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3734 "2012-06-30T23:22:51Z")
> [@Ike Witt](#): > > Good news. Guilty. [I don’t understand the position of the anti-Sandusky crowd. If he were found not guilty, that’d mean that no rape occurred! Wouldn’t that be better?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14953543&postcount=342) ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3735 "2012-06-30T23:44:20Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > Assuming that CNN article is accurate, Paterno was clearly dishonest when he said that once he reported the incident “that was the last time the matter was brought to my attention until this investigation and I assumed that the men I referred it to handled the matter appropriately.” > > The conversation referred to in the email was 16 days later. This point is expounded upon in some detail [here](http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--joe-paterno-role-jerry-sandusky-coverup-grows.html;_ylt=Al0IK3ewqDUm7UfLaTXOoZrzWed_;_ylu=X3oDMTIzN25zNW50BG1pdANIQ01PTCBvbiBhcnRpY2xlIHJpZ2h0IHJhaWwEcGtnA2lkLTI0MDA0MzMEcG9zAzQEc2VjA2hjbQR2ZXIDMTI-;_ylg=X3oDMTJtNWs2cmszBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDZjIyZjZlN2YtZjU5Ny0zMzdmLWI3NjItOTg5MDIyYjdmNzgwBHBzdGNhdAN1LXMEcHQDc3RvcnlwYWdl;_ylv=3). ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3736 "2012-07-01T01:22:02Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > [I don’t understand the position of the anti-Sandusky crowd. If he were found not guilty, that’d mean that no rape occurred! Wouldn’t that be better?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14953543&postcount=342) The ignorance! It burns!!! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3737 "2012-07-01T01:37:32Z")
We seriously, seriously need a facepalm smiley around here. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3738 "2012-07-01T09:54:32Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > This point is expounded upon in some detail [here](http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--joe-paterno-role-jerry-sandusky-coverup-grows.html;_ylt=Al0IK3ewqDUm7UfLaTXOoZrzWed_;_ylu=X3oDMTIzN25zNW50BG1pdANIQ01PTCBvbiBhcnRpY2xlIHJpZ2h0IHJhaWwEcGtnA2lkLTI0MDA0MzMEcG9zAzQEc2VjA2hjbQR2ZXIDMTI-;_ylg=X3oDMTJtNWs2cmszBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDZjIyZjZlN2YtZjU5Ny0zMzdmLWI3NjItOTg5MDIyYjdmNzgwBHBzdGNhdAN1LXMEcHQDc3RvcnlwYWdl;_ylv=3). That article makes it even worse for Paterno. They were going to tell the proper authorities until they talked to Paterno and changed their mind. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3739 "2012-07-01T16:36:40Z")
NM… I was wooshed. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3740 "2012-07-02T17:27:11Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > Assuming that CNN article is accurate, Paterno was clearly dishonest when he said that once he reported the incident “that was the last time the matter was brought to my attention until this investigation and I assumed that the men I referred it to handled the matter appropriately.” > > The conversation referred to in the email was 16 days later. Something in this. Does not look good for JP. That said, I don’t see why it looks bad for C&S, as many have asserted. There’s no indication in the emails, as reported, that they knew anything more than they claimed to have known. The only thing you see in the emails is that they devoted a lot of consideration to what they should do. I don’t see why that’s bad for them. ISTM that people are interpreting this as negative only based on the pre-existing notion that C&S were out to cover it up. In light of this, the evidence that they initially were inclined to report it is interpreted as evidence that they must have known it was really really bad. But that’s circular. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3741 "2012-07-02T18:53:33Z")
Because “devoting a lot of consideration” to what they were going to do, and ultimately deciding to do the wrong thing, looks pretty bad for anyone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=186) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=188)