# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 190
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3782 "2012-07-05T17:40:33Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > There’s inevitably going to be a line somewhere in terms of what counts as suspicion of abuse. > It’s easy and fun to be absolutist when offered the opportunity for santimoniously condemning other people. But I’m sure you would have your own line somewhere, if you had to deal with an actual situation versus pious pontification. But that wasn’t the topic of their discussion. In the emails, it was never an issue of “is this a legitimate complaint of abuse”, it was “what do we do about this complaint of abuse”. And, “if we handle this internally and it doesn’t work, we will be vulnerable for not reporting it”. Now, tell me, if they thought the complaint was in any way unbelievable, why on earth would the second part of that statement exist? “If the message is not heard and acted upon” is not something you say if you honestly believe the accusation to be false or questionable. You’re stretching beyond the limits of plausibility to entertain the idea that maybe somebody somewhere really legitimately didn’t do anything wrong. Sanctimoniously condemning other people? Are you for real with this bullshit? You mean that guy who was convicted on 48 counts of molesting / raping children and the university administration that was made aware of accusations of abuse, and then tried to handle it internally while admitting they would be vulnerable for not reporting if their methods didn’t work, these are the guys who are being “sanctimoniously condemned”? You’re a fucking riot. Keep fighting the good fight. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3783 "2012-07-05T17:45:25Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That’s fine. Be sick.There’s inevitably going to be a line somewhere in terms of what counts as suspicion of abuse. > > It’s easy and fun to be absolutist when offered the opportunity for santimoniously condemning other people. But I’m sure you would have your own line somewhere, if you had to deal with an actual situation versus pious pontification.Try to understand what you’re commenting on. That is why there is a law about it, so that the line is drawn. It absolves those who report it from having to make those kind of decisions and it is also appropriate in terms of risk management. Define clear lines to the areas of authority, the President and Athletic Director were not the end of the line per the State law. The law was there to protect them, the University and the state. The fact that they chose to ignore it is at represents a clear abrogation or their duties as state officials, regardless of their role as human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3784 "2012-07-05T17:46:19Z")
Jeez, the [Penn. statute](http://www.rainn.org/pdf-files-and-other-documents/Public-Policy/Legal-resources/2009-Mandatory-Report/Pennsylvania09C.pdf) on reporting requirements was first posted on this thread on Page 1. It is crystal clear that if there is a “suspicion” of abuse, reporting is mandatory. This is no wiggle room. If the emails are evidence of anything at all, at the very least they are evidence that the people writing them shared a suspicion of Sandusky’s actions. ---
**Author:** ![Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ian_D.Bergkamp)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3785 "2012-07-05T19:45:01Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > There’s inevitably going to be a line somewhere in terms of what counts as suspicion of abuse. At this point, I think it’s helpful to look back at the indictment to see what Paterno and Schultz had to say about what was reported to them: From p. 7: > [@](#): > > Joseph V. Paterno testified to receiving the graduate assistant’s report at his home on a Saturday morning. Paterno testified that the graduate assistant was very upset. Paterno called Tim Curley (“Curley”) Penn State Athletic Director and Paterno’s immediate superior, to his home the very next day, a Sunday, and reported to him that the graduate assistant had seen Jerry Sandusky in the Lasch Building showers _ **fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy** _. From pp. 8-9: > [@](#): > > Schultz testified that he was called to a meeting with Joe Paterno and Tim Curley, in which Paterno reported “disturbing” and “inappropriate” conduct in the shower by Sandusky upon a young boy, as reported to him by a student or graduate student. Schultz was present in a subsequent meeting with Curley when the graduate assistant reported the incident in the shower involving Sandusky and a boy. Schultz was very unsure about what he remembered the graduate assistant telling him and Curley about the shower incident.\*\*\* He testified that he had the impression that Sandusky might have inappropriately grabbed the young boy’s genitals while wrestling and agreed that such was inappropriate sexual contact between a man and a boy.\*\*\* _ **While equivocating on the definition of “sexual” in the context of Sandusky wrestling with and grabbing the genitals of the boy, Schultz conceded that the report the graduate assistant made was of inappropriate sexual contact by Sandusky.** _ However, Schultz testified that the allegations were “not that serious” and that he and Curley “had no indication that a crime had occurred.” Schultz agreed that sodomy between Sandusky and a child would clearly be inappropriate sexual conduct. He denied having such conduct reported to him either by Paterno or the graduate assistant. (Emphasis added by me in both accounts.) Bear in mind these are Paterno’s and Schultz’s recollections of their conversations with McQueary, so while you seem to have a problem with McQueary’s credibility, that is not at issue here. The point you seem to miss is that any allegation of “fondling or something of a sexual nature” (Paterno’s testimony) or “inappropriate sexual contact” (Schultz’s testimony) were both, by themselves, enough to trigger a report. But Penn State chose instead to conduct their own investigation rather than file the required report. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3786 "2012-07-05T19:50:43Z")
> [@I'm Not Dennis Bergkamp](#): > > The point you seem to miss is that any allegation of “fondling or something of a sexual nature” (Paterno’s testimony) or “inappropriate sexual contact” (Schultz’s testimony) were both, by themselves, enough to trigger a report. But Penn State chose instead to conduct their own investigation rather than file the required report. What makes it doubly worse is that they think a 60 year old man bringing a boy to a shower room at night and “fondling” him or doing “something of a sexual nature” with him or initiating “inappropriate sexual contact” with him is “not that serious.” They should be strung up for that alone. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3787 "2012-07-05T20:42:07Z")
Are people STILL trying to justify and defend these scumbags??? ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3788 "2012-07-05T21:05:23Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Are people STILL trying to justify and defend these scumbags??? So much this. Every time I see this thread pop up on the first page of the Pit, I know before even looking who’s doing the justifying and defending. Pedantic hair-splitting to defend pedophile-enablers seems to be the schtick du jour for certain pathetic Dopers. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3789 "2012-07-05T21:09:48Z")
> [@I'm Not Dennis Bergkamp](#): > > Bear in mind these are Paterno’s and Schultz’s recollections of their conversations with McQueary, so while you seem to have a problem with McQueary’s credibility, that is not at issue here. The point you seem to miss is that any allegation of “fondling or something of a sexual nature” (Paterno’s testimony) or “inappropriate sexual contact” (Schultz’s testimony) were both, by themselves, enough to trigger a report. But Penn State chose instead to conduct their own investigation rather than file the required report. That’s a fair point, and not something I’m prepared to argue. What you’re saying is that by Schultz’s own testimony he was guilty of not reporting suspected child abuse, and if that’s the case, I’m not sure what the trial will be about (unless there’s a SOL and it’s just the perjury). I was therefore operating under the premise that C&S’ testimony was a defense of themselves, and that if they were right they were innocent, such that the veracity of their and McQueary’s testimony was relevant. And the issue is raised here in terms of whether and to what extent the emails shed new light on matters. If you’re correct about the law and facts, then I agree with you. Perhaps you can clarify how you see the two sides, such as they are. (IOW, what are C&S and their lawyers arguing?) ---
**Author:** ![Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ian_D.Bergkamp)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3790 "2012-07-06T13:00:34Z")
Curley and Schultz are charged with perjury and failing to report. The perjury charges hinge on what McQueary said in his meeting with them. McQueary says he was clear about the nature of the incident, while both Curley and Schultz say he wasn’t. I copied Schultz’s recollection above, while Curley says McQueary described nothing more than “horseplay.” So I suspect both Curley and Schultz will stick to what they told the grand jury, even though their recollections differ, which means one of them must be wrong. (But I understand that doesn’t necessarily make McQueary right.) On the charge of failure to report, I suspect both Curley and Schultz are going to argue that McQueary’s allegations did not rise to the level of suspected abuse. That’s an easier argument for Curley, who can point to the “horseplay” description, but Schultz’s testimony to the grand jury seems to remove any doubt that what he was told rises to the level of suspected abuse. I have no idea what the specifics of his defense are going to be. I would not be surprised to see a plea bargain in either case, though. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3791 "2012-07-12T10:40:12Z")
Good News! A letter written by the long-dead Joe Pa says this was not a football scandal! Further, it was not an academic scandal either! So that means we can … I dunno forget the whole thing I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3792 "2012-07-12T10:47:57Z")
The Freeh report is due out this morning at 9 a.m. EDT. You can read it [here](http://thefreehreportonpsu.com/). ETA: It’ll be interesting to see how Fotheringay-Phipps spins this. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3793 "2012-07-12T13:16:36Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > What makes it doubly worse is that they think a 60 year old man bringing a boy to a shower room at night and “fondling” him or doing “something of a sexual nature” with him or initiating “inappropriate sexual contact” with him is “not that serious.” > > They should be strung up for that alone. In Paterno’s case, we’d have to exhume the body. But it would certainly drive the point home. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3794 "2012-07-12T13:25:49Z")
The full pdf of the report is available [here](http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/07/12/freeh.report.pdf?hpt=hp_t1). It’s pretty damning. “Taking into account the available witness statements and evidence, the Special Investigative Counsel finds that it is more reasonable to conclude that, in order to avoid the consequences of bad publicity, the most powerful leaders at the University - Spanier, Schultz, Paterno, and Curley - repeatedly concealed critical facts relating to Sandusky’s child abuse from the authorities, the University’s Board of Trustees, the Penn State community, and the public at large.” ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3795 "2012-07-12T13:32:43Z")
Even if you just read the timeline, jesus christ. It really looks like Paterno was the reason it wasn’t reported. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3796 "2012-07-12T14:08:07Z")
The attitude displayed in Paterno’s comment to McQueary is amazing: “You did what you had to do. It is my job now to figure out what we **want** to do.” Bolding mine. McQueary had to report to Joe, but Joe does whatever he wants. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3797 "2012-07-12T14:43:30Z")
Sports Illustrated’s take on the report. [http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/football/ncaa/07/12/penn-state-freeh-report-sandusky-paterno.ap/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp\_t11\_a0](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/football/ncaa/07/12/penn-state-freeh-report-sandusky-paterno.ap/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t11_a0) ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3798 "2012-07-12T14:47:10Z")
_\_ ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3799 "2012-07-12T15:40:17Z")
That report pretty much spells the end of Penn State football forever. The NCAA will _have_ to give them the Death Penalty. Anything less would cause the end of the NCAA. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3800 "2012-07-12T16:34:19Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > That report pretty much spells the end of Penn State football forever. The NCAA will _have_ to give them the Death Penalty. Anything less would cause the end of the NCAA. You’re joking, right? No way Penn State gets the Death Penalty. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3801 "2012-07-12T16:37:44Z")
Bets? This isn’t just some recruiting violations we’re talking about. Odds are they will get nuked, and promptly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=189) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=191)