# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 191
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3802 "2012-07-12T16:41:47Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > You’re joking, right? > > No way Penn State gets the Death Penalty. I dunno. This could be construed as the worst case of Lack of Institutional Control in the history of organized sports. Sandusky is obviously a sociopathic predator who ruined children’s lives. What PSU, Spanier, Paterno, etc did is like sending victims back to Dahmer. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3803 "2012-07-12T16:43:16Z")
Penn State _should_ get the boot, but my cynicism about the NCAA knows few boundaries, so i’m not counting my chickens yet. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3804 "2012-07-12T16:49:54Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Bets? This isn’t just some recruiting violations we’re talking about. Odds are they will get nuked, and promptly. I’d bet against. No players were raped. No games were interrupted because of rapes. The NCAA will do all it can to treat the issue just like Penn State did. They will talk it over with the PS Board, advise counseling, insist that they create some new official rules on paper that will probably be ignored, and forget it. It’s the ‘humane’ thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3805 "2012-07-12T17:00:47Z")
I retract my disagreement with **silenus** , because I didn’t understand the meaning of the term “death penalty” in NCAA parlance. I thought it was really a severe punishment, like casting them out permanently. Having looked it up, it means a one (or maybe more) year suspension from playing in NCAA games and tournaments, which amounts to a pricey slap on the wrist. Yes I agree they will do this, for the sake of their own image if for nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3806 "2012-07-12T17:04:23Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I retract my disagreement with **silenus** , because I didn’t understand the meaning of the term “death penalty” in NCAA parlance. I thought it was really a severe punishment, like casting them out permanently. Having looked it up, it means a one (or maybe more) year suspension from playing in NCAA games and tournaments, which amounts to a pricey slap on the wrist. > > Yes I agree they will do this, for the sake of their own image if for nothing else. Don’t underestimate it. The one time it was actually used, it permanently changed the landscape of college football. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3807 "2012-07-12T17:07:27Z")
Who knows if they’ll do it. From the [ESPN coverage](http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8159195/report-says-penn-state-senior-officials-disregarded-children-welfare), according to at least one lawyer, there might not be enough according to NCAA rules to impose the death penalty: > [@](#): > > Michael Buckner, an attorney who specializes in NCAA cases, told [ESPN.com](http://ESPN.com)’s Joe Schad that the findings in the Freeh report don’t necessarily violate NCAA rules. > > “It documented a lack of institutional control (as it is generally defined and understood) at Penn State, but not the lack of control as defined in the NCAA Manual or articulated by the Committee on Infractions,” Buckner said. That would be a travesty, if it were the case and a demonstration the NCAA needs to revise its policies. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3808 "2012-07-12T17:07:40Z")
Even a year suspension of a football program can have effects that resonate for multiple years after. The best high school recruits aren’t going to want to go to a school with a suspended program, and current upperclassmen aren’t going to stick around and waste a year of eligibility. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3809 "2012-07-12T17:10:31Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Don’t underestimate it. The one time it was actually used, it permanently changed the landscape of college football. Look it up in Wiki. It’s been used half a dozen times, though not always against the football team. Please explain to me what permanent changes this made – I haven’t noticed anything. If the NCAA wanted to be _really_ serious about a “death penalty”, they should make it last at least four years, so the really competitive athletes at the school would transfer out. Also, the school couldn’t recruit first class high school athletes, who would know they’d have little or no chance to play against top teams and eventually make it into the pros. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3810 "2012-07-12T17:12:28Z")
I appreciate how everyone is weighing in on exactly how hefty a penalty / burden the “death penalty” would be on Penn State in this instance. My response is – good. Fuck them. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3811 "2012-07-12T17:12:56Z")
One thing I do wonder…how is it that Sandusky has been tried and convicted, but Curley and Schultz are still awaiting trial? Is it because they were continuing their cases pending the outcome of Sandusky’s? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3812 "2012-07-12T17:13:04Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > That report pretty much spells the end of Penn State football forever. The NCAA will _have_ to give them the Death Penalty. Anything less would cause the end of the NCAA. If there’s one thing I’ve learned about college athletics in my life, it’s that the fans will forgive any abuse, any outrage, any crime, so long as they can sit down and drink their beer and watch the gaaaaaaaaame. Add to this the fact that the NCAA drop-kicked the whole concept of the “noble student athlete” decades ago and became a cynical money machine, and no, there’s no way IMO Penn State will get anything other than some token fine, which some “anonymous donor” will cover out of their pocket money. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3813 "2012-07-12T17:13:29Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > From the [ESPN coverage](http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8159195/report-says-penn-state-senior-officials-disregarded-children-welfare), according to at least one lawyer, there might not be enough according to NCAA rules to impose the death penalty: Yep, I’m seeing this from a few other journalists. Unfortunately, the NCAA rules apparently do not cover this kind of activity (or inactivity). The Paterno family needs to get with it, though. They are still claiming Joe had no knowledge at all about Sandusky’s behavior. Look guys, there’s no way to spin it at this point. Just admit he had a major lapse in judgment and move on. Joe himself admitted regrets about how things were handled. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3814 "2012-07-12T17:15:33Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Look it up in Wiki. It’s been used half a dozen times, though not always against the football team. Please explain to me what permanent changes this made – I haven’t noticed anything. If the NCAA wanted to be _really_ serious about a “death penalty”, they should make it last at least four years, so the really competitive athletes at the school would transfer out. Also, the school couldn’t recruit first class high school athletes, who would know they’d have little or no chance to play against top teams and eventually make it into the pros. SMU football, and it was incredibly impactful because football is an enormous revenue-generating sport. Read about it here, under [Fallout](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Methodist_University_football_scandal). ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3815 "2012-07-12T17:23:13Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Look it up in Wiki. It’s been used half a dozen times, though not always against the football team. Please explain to me what permanent changes this made – I haven’t noticed anything. Actually, the NCAA has never used the death penalty again on a D1 athletic program. It has only been used twice since SMU, a DII soccer team and a DIII tennis team. As for the results of the SMU death penalty, they’re pretty well known. Have you heard much of SMU as a football program or even as a university since about 1989? ---
**Author:** ![Mithras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Mithras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithras)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3816 "2012-07-12T17:36:59Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Who knows if they’ll do it. > > From the [ESPN coverage](http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8159195/report-says-penn-state-senior-officials-disregarded-children-welfare), according to at least one lawyer, there might not be enough according to NCAA rules to impose the death penalty: I wonder how he reaches that interpretation. [These](http://www.athletics.illinois.edu/compliance/pdfs/institutional/Principles-of-Institutional-Control.pdf) are the principles of institutional control for the NCAA. Point 8 (A head coach fails to create and maintain an atmosphere for compliance within the program the coach supervises…) in the list of acts likely to demonstrate a lack of control is interesting. The Freeh report brings up Paterno using his influence to get kids who deserve severe punishment a slap on the wrist so that they could still play football (see the footnote that begins on page 65 of the report). It directly ties that incident with causing the feeling in some people that they should not come forward with what they’d seen or knew. That looks to me like failing to create an atmosphere for compliance. Unless all that’s moot and what the guy’s saying is that because raping children isn’t directly dealt with in the NCAA rules, anyone at Penn State could have raped as many children as they wanted and still played football. ---
**Author:** ![Mithras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Mithras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithras)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3817 "2012-07-12T18:33:40Z")
Now I’ve been looking at the NCAA bylaws a bit and it just comes off as too vague to not be able to hit Penn State with a major violation. The list of unethical conduct, for example, deals mainly with cheating but starts the list of violations with “may include, but is not limited to”. And if you get hit with a major violation it appears the NCAA has the ability to use any of its enforcement options. I’m not sure why the NCAA lawyer expert zeroed in on institutional control specifically, but the bylaws are a vague 400 page document. I’m sure someone with a mind for it could find something in there that Penn State did wrong. If they want to. And who knows with the NCAA? ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3818 "2012-07-12T19:37:31Z")
Nike is taking Paterno’s name off their corporate childcare center - > **[Nike takes Paterno's name off child care center](https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/8160568/nike-takes-joe-paterno-name-child-care-center-company-headquarters)** > > The president of Nike Inc. said Thursday he has decided to change the name of the Joe Paterno Child Development Center, a child care facility at the company's headquarters outside Portland. Death Penalty or no Death Penalty - I suspect Penn State is going to have a hard time finding advertising money in the coming years, not to mention recruits. If you were a high school senior looking to start your career - would you want to get in the middle of this? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3819 "2012-07-12T19:51:02Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Nike is taking Paterno’s name off their corporate childcare center - > [Nike takes Joe Paterno's name off child care center at company headquarters - ESPN](http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8160568/nike-takes-joe-paterno-name-child-care-center-company-headquarters) > > Death Penalty or no Death Penalty - I suspect Penn State is going to have a hard time finding advertising money in the coming years, not to mention recruits. If you were a high school senior looking to start your career - would you want to get in the middle of this? I have a friend who has two daughters in HS, and one of the colleges they _were_ considering _was_ Penn State. Learning about Sandusky was almost the least of what upset him – it was the idea that there were privileged jocks walking around on campus not being held responsible for their actions. He decided it wasn’t a safe environment for his daughters, though OG knows I’m hard pressed to think of _any_ college campuses as safe environments for daughters (if I had them). ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3820 "2012-07-12T19:56:27Z")
There has to be a rule specifically banning rapping children for the NCAA? REALLY? If they don’t impose the death penalty on Penn State it is a stain on all college football. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3821 "2012-07-12T20:01:44Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > There has to be a rule specifically banning rapping children for the NCAA? REALLY? Well, yeah. Rapping children should have been banned a long time ago. It’s something to do with their affectation of the idioms and attitude of hip hop. It’s too old and worldly-wise. Doesn’t suit a child at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=190) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=192)