# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 194
**Author:** ![meanoldman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@meanoldman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meanoldman)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3862 "2012-07-13T21:15:33Z")
FWIW My thoughts are: 1. NCAA Death penalty for the football program. It was the football program that lacked institutional control and oversight. This must serve as a warning to others…never let the football program have this much power without oversight. 2. Not only let the student-athlete transfer immediately if they want, the NCAA should -help- them transfer if at all possible. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3863 "2012-07-13T21:19:30Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > This morning I read the statement, and the part where they say “The idea that any sane, responsible adult would knowingly cover up for a child predator is impossible to accept,” made me laugh out loud. That sounds like the words of an earnest teenager who’s been raised in a sheltered environment or something. If I were to somehow reply to the Paterno family, I would say “Three words: Roman Catholic Church.” I don’t think they are the same situation. I’m not an expert on the RCC situtation, but my impression is that the RCC leadership did think they were dealing with the situation on their own, but just did a bad job of it. In this case, what’s being alleged is that JP not only covered up for someone he knew to be a child molestor but made zero attempt to even follow up on him, while allowing him to hang around the football program. It’s hard to imagine why he might have done this. Even if JP was the single most amoral bastard who ever lived, and had zero concern for anyone or anything besides himself and his football program, it’s hard to see why he would chose that course of action. If he knew the guy was a molestor and pedophile, then the least he could have done to protect himself and his football program was to keep an eye on the guy to make sure he didn’t cause a massive scandal that would crush him and his program. Or, at the absolute least, to keep him away from the program. To just let a ticking time bomb that could blow up on him and him program just keep ticking and do absolutely nothing about it was completely contrary to his self-interest. I can understand the cover-up. But the fact that he did nothing about it going forward either is a strong indication that he simply did not appreciate that the guy was a molestor, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3864 "2012-07-13T21:42:59Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > …It’s hard to imagine why … > … it’s hard to see why he would… the least he could have done …was completely contrary to his self-interest… a strong indication that he simply did not appreciate that the guy was a molestor… You make a lot of weasely statements like this. Maybe, if you put more effort into reading the evidence, such as emails, grand jury testimony, and investigative reports, you’d stop having to imagine so much about this case. You’re obviously very dedicated to the idea that the evidence of what happened is so far beyond your imagination that it simply cannot be. The evidence of the case suggests otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3865 "2012-07-13T22:07:39Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > They said they were definitely reporting to “his organization” (Second Mile) and were uncertain about the other (I assume DPW). Ultimately they did inform the former and not the latter. The report concludes that Curley decided not to go to the police about the 2001 shower incident McQueary saw (the one that was previously believed to have taken place in 2002) after a meeting with Paterno. I’ve botched some details, but that’s what I had in mind. They also didn’t tell the board of trustees of the school. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > But the fact that he did nothing about it going forward either is a strong indication that he simply did not appreciate that the guy was a molestor, IMO. I think this theory relies on Joe Paterno being the dumbest motherfucker in the state of Pennsylvania, if not the Eastern United States. I won’t rule that out. I don’t think he hated children or didn’t care if they were molested- I think he just didn’t want to know what was happening beyond making sure it didn’t hurt his football kingdom. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3866 "2012-07-13T22:17:08Z")
The culture at Penn State is so fucked up that it doesn’t matter if all the ringleaders are gone. Wipe the slate clean. Shut the program down and start over again from scratch in a few years. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3867 "2012-07-14T00:35:46Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I can understand the cover-up. But the fact that he did nothing about it going forward either is a strong indication that he simply did not appreciate that the guy was a molestor, IMO. Even if he didn’t believe the guy was a molester , that wasn’t the reason nothing changed going forward. Even if you don’t believe it, there’s no reason to give a former employee free access to the locker rooms, and if for some reason you agree to it, and you are afraid to be sued if it was revoked , there is no reason in the world to allow that _former_ employee free access to bring children into the Penn State facilities. Except for hubris, and arrogance and every other word that describes people who think the normal rules don’t apply to them. It wasn’t about protecting the program- it was about protecting his friend. Forget the fact that the retiring assistant coach of some other sport or assistant professor of music wouldn’t have been given the same opportunity to continue to work with children while capitalizing on an association with Penn State after such an accusation. Let’s look at a sports organization that **really** wants to protect the program, like a professional team. Some professional teams allow other entities to run children’s camps or clinics using the team name where the professional coaches or player make appearances and act as guest instructors. How quickly do you think that team will disassociate itself from a non-employee who was accused of taking a shower with a child? It _might_ take 14 hours , but certainly not 14 years. The program would have been fine if Sandusky had been made to go away after the first incident. It was Paterno’s arrogance in believing he could protect his friend by keeping the incidents under wraps indefinitely and everyone’s else’s apparent fear of Paterno that caused problems for the program. - I suppose he could have been the dumbest guy in the entire US - I mean really, the guy is retiring because he has realized that he’s not getting the job he hoped for and for this year only he can retire with five years less service than usual, but what he’s worried about is continuing " to have the opportunity to work with young people through Penn State" and having the “opportunity to run a football camp for middle school youth” - and that doesn’t raise any red flags even though he had _already_ been accused of inappropriate behavior in a shower ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3868 "2012-07-14T00:46:30Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m not an expert on the RCC situtation, but my impression is that the RCC leadership did think they were dealing with the situation on their own, but just did a bad job of it. > > \ > > But the fact that he did nothing about it going forward either is a strong indication that he simply did not appreciate that the guy was a molestor, IMO. Your position on the law seems to be that we should let people do whatever the hell they want, as long as they give us the “impression” that they have the best of intentions. So, in your world, the RCC can protect abusive priests by simply shuffling them from one diocese to another, but that’s OK because that’s their way of “dealing with the situation.” And, in your world, the fact that Joe Paterno failed to do anything constitutes, by itself, evidence that he had no malicious or criminal intent. So the act itself serves as mitigation for the criminality of the act. It’s a perfect logical circle! ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3869 "2012-07-14T01:21:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think this theory relies on Joe Paterno being the dumbest motherfucker in the state of Pennsylvania You are actively discounting the fact that this is where Steelers fans, and their raping QB apologists, also reside. Don’t underestimate the stupid in that part of collegiate/NFL fandom. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3870 "2012-07-14T02:56:22Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > You are actively discounting the fact that this is where Steelers fans, and their raping QB apologists, also reside. > > Don’t underestimate the stupid in that part of collegiate/NFL fandom. I don’t need to be an apologist for the Steelers to point out that a quarterback with criminal convictions plays in Philadelphia. Why did you not include him in your insightful analysis? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3871 "2012-07-14T03:25:11Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Even if he didn’t believe the guy was a molester , that wasn’t the reason nothing changed going forward. It’s also worth noting here that even though I think it’s crazy to believe that Paterno might not have known this guy was abusing children _the second time he heard about a suspicious incident_, there is no doubt the PSU administrators understood the possibility that he might be a child molester. Their emails around the time of the 2001 meeting with Sandusky become noticeably vague - they stop referring to people by name and start talking about meetings with “the person” and discussions with “the group” and “the other group” - and one of them notes their decision to sit him down and talk to him instead of going to the police could blow up in their faces if he continues to abuse children. Even though they considered this possibility, that’s exactly what happened and here we are. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3872 "2012-07-14T13:09:05Z")
Did you hear some wiseacre’s comment on Twitter? Instead of removing the statue of JoePa, just have it turn away as if nothing happened. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3873 "2012-07-14T14:40:25Z")
As soon as all the legal stuff is over, PSU is planning to renovate and change the Lasch building, and especially the shower area. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3874 "2012-07-14T14:51:57Z")
**R-P** , even The Onion got it, and within a day or so. Why can’t you? [Nation’s 10-Year-Old Boys: ‘If You See Someone Raping Us, Please Call The Police’ ‘Doesn’t Matter Who, Doesn’t Matter Where,’ Children Say](http://www.theonion.com/articles/nations-10yearold-boys-if-you-see-someone-raping-u,26724/) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3875 "2012-07-14T15:06:41Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > This really doesn’t matter. See USC, being punished for things that happened while Reggie Bush and Pete Carroll were there. The PSU board of trustees is the same and they admit that they dropped the ball in allowing the kind of environment that Paterno and others operated in. Yes, but USC didn’t fire its president, athletic director and the remainder of its football staff. > [@mhendo](#): > > Do you believe, as a general principle, that punishment for crime or other rule violations should _only_ ever be instituted when it might have a deterrent effect on the particular individual or institution involved? > > What about punishment _qua_ punishment; a penalty for doing wrong? > > What about the deterrent effect on others? > > Do these play any part in a system of justice, in your mind? Of course they play a part. However, NCAA sanctions are not part of a “system of justice”. They are regulatory rules, plain and simple. Applying the “death penalty” to the PSU athletic program because of (an admittedly horrible crime and cover-up) totally unrelated to athletics doesn’t make sense; it would be like pulling the engineering school’s accreditation because the department chair turned out to be a serial killer or something. There is nothing in the NCAA rules, _per se_, that prohibits this sort of conduct. It’s a matter of criminal and civil law, not amateur\* athletic codes. > [@MsRobyn](#): > > Given the fact that Paterno is dead, Sandusky is in prison, and that Spanier, Schultz, and Curley are gone, there just isn’t that much house left to clean. And since the players themselves weren’t involved, I’d think this would make the Death Penalty moot. > > \ > > If I were the NCAA, this is what I’d do: > > [ul] > [li]First, I’d give the football program the USC treatment. Since the players themselves weren’t involved, it’s inappropriate to remove scholarships. But it would be entirely appropriate to make them ineligible for post-season play for a period of, say, five years.[/li][li]Require Penn State to forfeit a percentage of their income from TV rights and licensed merchandising for, say, five years. Put that money into a victims’ compensation fund, as well as toward scholarships for PSU students involved either in research or working toward certification in counseling for childhood sexual abuse. Or some other appropriate field of endeavor. This percentage should be large enough to wound, but not so large that PSU is completely fucked.[/li][li]Establish or strengthen regulations concerning the affiliation of youth programs and college athletics programs. Make sure there is some transparency there, as well as some accountability.[/li][li]Require regular background checks of adult staff members, and any staff member suspected of abuse must immediately be removed from any contact with children, pending investigation.[/li][/ul] I have no problem with any of this stuff, and I think the second point is a very good idea indeed. > [@Mr.Moto](#): > > I don’t need to be an apologist for the Steelers to point out that a quarterback with criminal convictions plays in Philadelphia. > > Why did you not include him in your insightful analysis? Probably because that guy repaid his debt to society\*\*, and Roethlisberger didn’t. \*I use the word advisedly. \*\*The debt society deemed appropriate, at any rate. I take no position on whether Vick deserved a longer jail term. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3876 "2012-07-14T16:30:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Of course they play a part. However, NCAA sanctions are not part of a “system of justice”. They are regulatory rules, plain and simple. Applying the “death penalty” to the PSU athletic program because of (an admittedly horrible crime and cover-up) totally unrelated to athletics doesn’t make sense; it would be like pulling the engineering school’s accreditation because the department chair turned out to be a serial killer or something. But, as a number of commentators have pointed out (there are links in this very thread), this was not “unrelated to athletics.” The very reason that so many people did so many things wrong in this case is _precisely_ because they considered the reputation and the status of the football program to be more important than their legal and moral obligations to Sandusky’s victims. Your engineering school analogy misses a key aspect of the case. If the department chair turned out to be a serial killer, and everyone else in the department and the university covered it up so that they could keep getting engineering-related grants and contracts, and maintain the reputation and standing of the engineering school, then damn right the engineering school should have its accreditation yanked. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3877 "2012-07-14T16:32:27Z")
I think that’s a bit of a stretch. I haven’t seen anything to indicate that the cover-up was intended to protect PSU’s recruiting and fundraising. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3878 "2012-07-14T16:41:35Z")
But it was intended specifically to protect the football program. It’s _only_ because of the size and prestige of the football program that so much was swept under the rug. Check out **Steve MB** ’s [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15268891#post15268891), and its quote from Eugene Robinson: > [@](#): > > In a letter he wrote before his death, apparently intended as an op-ed piece, Paterno argued that whatever people might think of his actions in the Sandusky matter, “this is not a football scandal.” > > But that’s precisely what it is. > > Imagine that an assistant coach of, say, the chess team were caught showering with an 11-year-old boy, as Sandusky was in 1998. Would that chess coach still be around three years later? If he were caught in the act of abusing another young boy in 2001, would the top officials of the university dither and fret for days — without making the slightest attempt to identify and locate the victim? Would the head chess coach be able to convince his superiors that there was no need to call state welfare officials, let alone the police?.. To argue that this whole thing is “totally unrelated to athletics” is to deliberately ignore or willfully dismiss the central reasons that so many people failed in their moral, ethical, and legal duties. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3879 "2012-07-14T16:50:54Z")
Gosh, I never thought I’d catch myself saying this, but after all the recent posts in this thread, I’m starting to miss the contributions of our former guest of honor. At least they were amusing. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3880 "2012-07-14T16:51:15Z")
That assumes that reporting Sandusky would have harmed the program, though. I don’t see how that’s the case. He had already “retired”; he was just a guy who hung around the facility and was friends with the coach. It was Paterno protecting One Of His Own, not the football program protecting itself. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/3881 "2012-07-14T17:11:55Z")
Of all the creepy and sad things about the story and the Freeh report, I think this is the creepiest part of the actions (or lack of them) by the senior administrators. I appears in the timeline as March 5, 2001 and refers to the still-unidentified victim McQueary saw being abused: > [@](#): > > … Sandusky offered to provide the name of the boy to Curley, but Curley did not want the boy’s name. … The source is Sandusky’s lawyer, so it’s likely second-hand and therefor suspect, but appalling if true. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=193) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=195)