# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/381 "2011-11-09T18:58:31Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Frankly – the players aren’t going to care. They are too young to have formed much of a social conscience, and when they hear that the events in question took place in 2001 – when they were playing with Legos – their eyes will glaze over as with any 18 year old discussing The Past. And you’re right, their number one focus is on the game, getting playing time, getting exposure (nothing wrong with that per se, every successful athlete I’ve known has been a bit of a monomaniac/egomaniac as to their athletic ability/interest). Disagree there. Once these guys hear that a coach they’ve known from handing around the weight room buttfucked a little kid in the same showers they use, they’ll freak. I shouldn’t be using the future tense here–I’m sure a lot of these players are damn near catatonic about this already. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/382 "2011-11-09T19:00:26Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Slight hijack: Why does that rule even exist? I assume there is a reason, but I can’t think of what it could be. Why should any student have a barrier to transfer? Prevents recruiting/stealing players. ETA: also players shopping themselves around. I see this at the high school level. Christian/Catholic(private) schools recruit from all the high schools in the area by offering free tuition/guaranteed playing time/etc. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/383 "2011-11-09T19:01:23Z")
On another note, is anyone else surprised that Sandusky hasn’t offed himself yet? I keep expecting to see that in the headlines. I know that sounds crass, but I’m genuinely amazed that he wants to live through the next few years. ---
**Author:** ![mkecane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9e8a1a/32.png) [@mkecane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkecane)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/384 "2011-11-09T19:02:27Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > Your last sentence is telling. It strikes me that many if not most of the people offended wouldn’t have done anything different that Paterno and the graduate assistant did. Most people don’t have the courage to do that, and I included myself in that group. We flatter ourselves that we do have the right stuff, but too often we don’t have it, really. > > In particular, I personally really doubt that 99% of sports talk pundits blathering on their shows about this matter have such courage. I think Mike Golic of ESPN would have saved the boy and taken action, but I have my doubts about the morning crew on 92.3 in Cleveland. I said on another board that all that needed to be done if for some reason McQueary didn’t want to get in a confrontation is make his presense known. He could have just yelled, “Hey, coach, are you in here? I got a question for you” and play dumb. That would have stopped the immediate problem. Or he could have yelled, “Get the fuck away from that kid!” Or he could have flicked the lights on and off or banged his hand against a locker…something to make it known that Sandusky and the kid weren’t alone and the kid needed to be released. Then if he’s still afraid of his career prospects rather than 911, go talk to Dad and Paterno. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/385 "2011-11-09T19:05:40Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Slight hijack: Why does that rule even exist? I assume there is a reason, but I can’t think of what it could be. Why should any student have a barrier to transfer? It’s a relic of the old system in which both pro and college teams “owned” players (free agency ended it in the pros, but free agency hasn’t really come to college). If it sounds like a bit of a plantation system . . . well, you wouldn’t be the first to make that observation. More prosaic practical reasons it may make sense to have the rule: colleges invest a lot of time and money in recruiting and initially training scholarship athletes. This is the quid pro quo to acknowledge that the kid can’t take that investment of time and money and skip off to another school who hasn’t invested anything in him. Or . . . 18 year old kids can be fickle, we don’t want them changing their mind just to change their mind, or because they’re in a snit over not getting enough playing time, or . . . whatever. Other major commitments (the military comes to mind) have significant limitations/penalties for quitting before “your time’s up,” why not NCAA scholarship sports? I think those are sort of the rational, non-plantation arguments that you’d hear from coaches and ADs. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/386 "2011-11-09T19:07:07Z")
> [@mkecane](#): > > Mike McQueary - he is still a coach. He played at PSU (very good wide receiver) in the mid-90s. He’s a position coach and their recruiting coordinator. > > When this first broke and we heard a grad assistant had witnessed the events, I had pictured in my head a 23-year nerdy type who loved football but was always too small to play, and then just stumbled across Sandusky and the kid by mistake. Sandusky is pretty big, so I could see a bit of an intimidation factor. But that this was a 28-year old former player who presumably could take care of himself while saving the kid…I don’t have the words. As an FYI, the GA spot is typically the first step on the coaching ladder. They are 2-year positions, and there are 2 on staff at any given time - one for the D and one for the O. They are very difficult to land, extremely sought-after, and pay almost nothing. They also require the GA to be enrolled in classes at the school. A friend of mine is in the position at a D-I school, and it was a tough gig for him to land. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/387 "2011-11-09T19:07:11Z")
If I had to speculate, I would guess that McQueery wasn’t sure at the time precisely what he was witnessing, only that it looked wrong. He was probably too far away to observe the nitty gritty details, and if the showers were on (I don’t know) it would have further obscured his vision. Plus, he was probably too shocked and agitated to pay close attention to the details. As he replayed it in his mind later it became more clear to him that he had actually witnessed anal sex. But this evolving thought process would have impacted what he told to various people, which may have changed over time (including in his grand jury testimony). Again, this is speculation, of course. [IIRC, McQueery testified that both Sandusky and the kid saw him. So somewhere out there is an approximately 19 year old guy who has yet to come forward.] ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/388 "2011-11-09T19:07:36Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > On another note, is anyone else surprised that Sandusky hasn’t offed himself yet? I keep expecting to see that in the headlines. > > I know that sounds crass, but I’m genuinely amazed that he wants to live through the next few years. I discreetly referred to the “Rommel endgame” several pages up (and felt bad about doing so, but my thinking is right with yours). ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/389 "2011-11-09T19:08:01Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > On another note, is anyone else surprised that Sandusky hasn’t offed himself yet? I keep expecting to see that in the headlines. > > I know that sounds crass, but I’m genuinely amazed that he wants to live through the next few years. He’s gotten out of similar sticky situations before. Hell, the Centre County DA actually dismissed similar charges back in the 90s (and then vanished from the face of the earth). Maybe he actually thinks he’s untouchable? ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/390 "2011-11-09T19:10:47Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > If I had to speculate, I would guess that McQueery wasn’t sure at the time precisely what he was witnessing, only that it looked wrong. He was probably too far away to observe the nitty gritty details, and if the showers were on (I don’t know) it would have further obscured his vision. Plus, he was probably too agitated to pay close attention to the details. > > As he replayed it in his mind later it became more clear to him that he had actually witnessed anal sex. But this evolving thought process would have impacted what he told to various people, which may have changed over time (including in his grand jury testimony). > > Again, this is speculation, of course. > > [IIRC, McQueery testified that both Sandusky and the kid saw him. So somewhere out there is an approximately 19 year old guy who has yet to come forward.] Speculation that, again, is contradicted by the sworn testimony. McQueary’s first indication that something was up was that he heard “rhythmic slapping sounds that made him think someone was engaged in sexual activity” (paraphrase), **then** he saw Sandusky engaged in “anal intercourse with a young boy.” Nothing in the sworn testimony or the findings of a pretty thorough GJ investigation supports your speculation. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/391 "2011-11-09T19:15:17Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Speculation that, again, is contradicted by the sworn testimony. No, it’s not. McQueary testified to the GJ years after the event. By that time he was clear that he had seen anal sex. I’m talking about what he understood at the time that he actually saw it. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/392 "2011-11-09T19:15:45Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > … > Frankly – the players aren’t going to care. They are too young to have formed much of a social conscience, and when they hear that the events in question took place in 2001 – when they were playing with Legos – their eyes will glaze over as with any 18 year old discussing The Past. And you’re right, their number one focus is on the game, getting playing time, getting exposure (nothing wrong with that per se, every successful athlete I’ve known has been a bit of a monomaniac/egomaniac as to their athletic ability/interest). I think the opposite. The players are too young to have lost their social conscience, not to have developed them. However, that is distinct from the pressure to believe in their coach and to somehow think he’s getting a raw deal. So the end result may be the same – they play on like they always have. Jeez, most every progressive social movement begins with kids that age – which is why so many of them are poorly thought out. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/393 "2011-11-09T19:17:05Z")
I’m very surprised by all the support Paterno is getting thus far from the students. On the news this morning, I saw where Paterno informed everyone about how he prays every night for his 16 grandchildren and now he’s going to add all these victims to his nightly ritual. Too bad he didn’t show such concern sooner, when he might have actually been able to do some good for these more than 20 boys. He should be ashamed. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/394 "2011-11-09T19:18:29Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > He’s gotten out of similar sticky situations before. Hell, the Centre County DA actually dismissed similar charges back in the 90s (and then vanished from the face of the earth). Maybe he actually thinks he’s untouchable? Maybe so, but he’ll be shunned from the entire state either way. He just has to know his life will be a living hell, either way. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/395 "2011-11-09T19:19:35Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > No, it’s not. > > McQueary testified to the GJ years after the event. By that time he was clear that he had seen anal sex. > > I’m talking about what he understood at the time that he actually saw it. Your assumption that he came to this realization later is sheer speculation. He testified what he testified. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/396 "2011-11-09T19:20:47Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > I discreetly referred to the “Rommel endgame” several pages up (and felt bad about doing so, but my thinking is right with yours). I remember that post now. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/397 "2011-11-09T19:20:53Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m talking about what he understood at the time that he actually saw it. And you have not a shred of evidence to support your contention that that was different from what he gave (unqualified, unreserved) sworn testimony about later. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/398 "2011-11-09T19:22:46Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Maybe so, but he’ll be shunned from the entire state either way. He just has to know his life will be a living hell, either way. If he goes to Rockview State Prison, as he likely will if he is convicted, his life will certainly be a living hell. Rockview is not exactly known as a country club-type prison. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/399 "2011-11-09T19:26:50Z")
> [@mkecane](#): > > I said on another board that all that needed to be done if for some reason McQueary didn’t want to get in a confrontation is make his presense known. He could have just yelled, “Hey, coach, are you in here? I got a question for you” and play dumb. That would have stopped the immediate problem. Or he could have yelled, “Get the fuck away from that kid!” Or he could have flicked the lights on and off or banged his hand against a locker…something to make it known that Sandusky and the kid weren’t alone and the kid needed to be released. Then if he’s still afraid of his career prospects rather than 911, go talk to Dad and Paterno. Easy to say in retrospect, hindsight being 20/20 and all. Hard to do in real time by most, non-heroic-type people, I’m guessing. You, of course, are the hero type. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/400 "2011-11-09T19:29:33Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > And you have not a shred of evidence to support your contention that that was different from what he gave (unqualified, unreserved) sworn testimony about later. I gave my reasons in the first paragraph of my post (#387). In addition, it’s consistent with his not having done anything about it at the time - which many have expressed surprise at - and also consistent with him not having told Paterno the details. (I believe the other two are claiming that he didn’t tell them the details either.) I said upfront that it’s speculation, but it’s not based on nothing either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=21)