# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 210
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4183 "2012-09-20T22:54:31Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > And JohnT, just a few posts up is someone calling SA a pedophile. It makes it challenging for people when in the middle of a discussion of pedophilia, you begin a thought experiment with “Line up a hundred boys…” ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4184 "2012-09-20T22:54:39Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Dear **Raft** and **liz** , the jury heard testimony and found the same things I did. I think I do remember an article about that: Sandusky Jury: Paper Towel Tube Proved It "Sandusky was acquitted today on all charges after an amazing and unprecendented test of the ‘paper towel tube’ theory by jurors. The test was performed by male and female jurors although the females were required to wear an artificial appendage. The jurors disrobed and were instructed to hold a paper towel tube at the appropriate height, upon which they attempted to place their respective natural or artificial appendage inside the tube accompanied by thrusting movements. The foreman was quoted as saying ‘This demonstration proves beyond a doubt that Sandusky could not have committed the alleged acts. We are all very grateful for the internet, otherwise this test would not have come to our attention. I shudder to think what would have happened if we had not been made aware of this definitive test, an innocent man would have gone to jail’" ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4185 "2012-09-20T23:03:49Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Dear **Raft** and **liz** , the jury heard testimony and found the same things I did. Men and boys sometimes shower together. Paterno did not know what Sandusky was doing. Sandusky was acquitted of rape in the shower room incident. > > I was right. You were wrong. I won. You lost. End of story. He was not found guilty of that particular incident because that victim never came forward. Your point remains stupid. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4186 "2012-09-20T23:27:22Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Yes, exactly. And the Sandusky jury, who knew a lot more about it than you or anyone else in this thread, agreed. > It was and remains a perfectly cromulent expositionary device. 🙂 Idiot, you do know Sandusky was convicted, and will most likely die in prison. That seems to point to the jury thinking he is guilty, and not agreeing with you. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4187 "2012-09-20T23:32:47Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Dear **Raft** and **liz** , the jury heard testimony and found the same things I did. Men and boys sometimes shower together. Paterno did not know what Sandusky was doing. Sandusky was acquitted of rape in the shower room incident. > > I was right. You were wrong. I won. You lost. End of story. Bet you’re posting from Saint Helena with your bicorn on & your hand [del]in[/del] down your [del]coat[/del] trousers. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4188 "2012-09-21T00:43:44Z")
> [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](#): > > Idiot, you do know Sandusky was convicted, and will most likely die in prison. That seems to point to the jury thinking he is guilty, and not agreeing with you. He is crowing over the fact that Sandusky was not found guilty of the incident in the shower. He is glossing over the fact that it wasn’t because the jury took out a paper towel tube and did an experiment. Or because they think that men and boys just happen to jump into showers together. It was because the victim in that case did not come forward and McQueary did not bother to find out the kids name when he ran away. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4189 "2012-09-21T00:57:25Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Dear **Raft** and **liz** , the jury heard testimony and found the same things I did. Men and boys sometimes shower together. Paterno did not know what Sandusky was doing. I don’t think this is correct. The jury in the trial of Sandusky did not make any determination about what Paterno did or did not know. He was not on trial. But Penn State’s own investigation, conducted by former FBI head Louis Freeh did make such a determination, to Mr. Paterno’s detriment: > [@](#): > > Mr. Freeh’s investigation makes clear it was Mr. Paterno, long regarded as the single most powerful official at the university, who persuaded the university president and others not to report Mr. Sandusky to the authorities… [From the NY Times article titled _ **Abuse Scandal Inquiry Damns Paterno and Penn State** _ from July 12, 2012.] ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4190 "2012-09-21T01:11:19Z")
And the wheel rolls around again… ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4191 "2012-09-21T01:32:47Z")
Goddammit, I had to take **SA** off my Ignore List to figure out _this_? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4192 "2012-09-21T01:41:35Z")
Good Lord, the thread that won’t die. SA, when you’re in a hole, or in this case, a crater, stop digging! ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4193 "2012-09-21T02:33:57Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > He was not found guilty of that particular incident because that victim never came forward. Your point remains stupid. Of relevant interest: [Victim #2 comes forward, plans to sue Penn State.](http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2012/07/26/victim-2-comes-forward-plans-to-sue-university/) That was back in July, there hasn’t been anything in the news since. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4194 "2012-09-21T03:01:53Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Dear **Raft** and **liz** , the jury heard testimony and found the same things I did. Men and boys sometimes shower together. Paterno did not know what Sandusky was doing. Sandusky was acquitted of rape in the shower room incident. > > I was right. You were wrong. I won. You lost. End of story. what exactly are you “winning,” here? ---
**Author:** ![Covered\_In\_Bees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Covered\_In\_Bees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covered_In_Bees)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4195 "2012-09-21T03:45:23Z")
Stupidest poster of the SDMB? You guys and all your fancy citations and links and news stories are doing really poorly in this competition, if I might add. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4196 "2012-09-21T04:05:31Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Dear **Raft** and **liz** , the jury heard testimony and found the same things I did. Men and boys sometimes shower together. And, as we eventually learned, men sometimes molest boys. At least 48 times, in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4197 "2012-09-21T07:08:14Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > Of relevant interest: [Victim #2 comes forward, plans to sue Penn State.](http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2012/07/26/victim-2-comes-forward-plans-to-sue-university/) That was back in July, there hasn’t been anything in the news since. Well there you go. I missed that one. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4198 "2012-09-21T13:39:39Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Good Lord, the thread that won’t die. > SA, when you’re in a hole, or in this case, a crater, stop digging! No. Keep digging SA. It stops me having to worry that new members might come along and take you seriously in another thread. Now - about those ‘specific geometries’ you were talking about. Can you run it all by us again. I’ve got a cardboard tube handy. I’ve water-proofed it and everything. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4199 "2012-09-21T15:13:19Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > I don’t think this is correct. The jury in the trial of Sandusky did not make any determination about what Paterno did or did not know. He was not on trial. > > But Penn State’s own investigation, conducted by former FBI head Louis Freeh did make such a determination, to Mr. Paterno’s detriment: [From the NY Times article titled _ **Abuse Scandal Inquiry Damns Paterno and Penn State** _ from July 12, 2012.] IIRC correctly, Freeh based his conclusion on emails from Curley and Schultz which which indicated they intended to report McQueary’s allegation, but that Curley had second thoughts after discussing the matter with Paterno and decided that he’d rather ask Sandusky about it first. To my mind there are a couple of problems with this. First, it presumes that Paterno counseled Curley not to go to the authorities, and second, it implies that Paterno told Curley to go to Sandusky instead. I think a more likely scenario, based upon Joe Paterno’s long standing reputation for integrity and good works, is that Curley advised Paterno that he and Schultz were trying to determine if what McQueary had told them rose to the level where it should be reported, and Paterno said something along the line of _“Well, I don’t know. He [Sandusky] seems to have a thing for hugging kids in the shower. I remember a couple of years ago this one kid’s mom became upset because he hugged her kid in the shower and she and she made accusations of some sort of sexual impropriety, but the authorities investigated it and nothing came of it. May be the same thing here, I don’t know. Just do whatever you think best.”_ Whereupon Curley decided to ask Sandusky about it, possibly with the idea in mind that he could suss out from Sandusky’s body English whether he was being truthful or not. I think this scenario is every bit as likely, if not more so, than the one in which Freeh appears to conclude simply from the fact they met that Paterno advised Curley against going to the authorities. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4200 "2012-09-21T15:21:44Z")
I think it probably went like this: Paterno dropping his trousers: “Look Curley, you see where my penis is? Now hold that paper towel tube at about this height…see how I have to bend my knees to a physically impossible position to be able to insert my penis into the tube? Wow, that is putting so much pressure on my back there is simply no way I could even thrust once or twice…case closed!” ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4201 "2012-09-21T15:42:27Z")
That, of course, would have worked just as well. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4202 "2012-09-21T16:05:06Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > IIRC correctly, Freeh based his conclusion on emails from Curley and Schultz which which indicated they intended to report McQueary’s allegation, but that Curley had second thoughts after discussing the matter with Paterno and decided that he’d rather ask Sandusky about it first. > > To my mind there are a couple of problems with this. First, it presumes that Paterno counseled Curley not to go to the authorities, and second, it implies that Paterno told Curley to go to Sandusky instead. > > I think a more likely scenario, based upon Joe Paterno’s long standing reputation for integrity and good works, is that Curley advised Paterno that he and Schultz were trying to determine if what McQueary had told them rose to the level where it should be reported, and Paterno said something along the line of _“Well, I don’t know. He [Sandusky] seems to have a thing for hugging kids in the shower. I remember a couple of years ago this one kid’s mom became upset because he hugged her kid in the shower and she and she made accusations of some sort of sexual impropriety, but the authorities investigated it and nothing came of it. May be the same thing here, I don’t know. Just do whatever you think best.”_ Whereupon Curley decided to ask Sandusky about it, possibly with the idea in mind that he could suss out from Sandusky’s body English whether he was being truthful or not. > > I think this scenario is every bit as likely, if not more so, than the one in which Freeh appears to conclude simply from the fact they met that Paterno advised Curley against going to the authorities. Really, you should go work for Penn State. I’m sure that they would appreciate your substantive and systematic critiques of the charges levelled against them. You should totally tell them how your internet-based analysis has comprehensively debunked the conclusions of the investigation by the former FBI head. Be sure to include the imaginary conversations; those are the most convincing part. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=209) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=211)