# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 212
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4223 "2012-09-21T18:41:36Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > You’re fucking pathetic. They found no such thing. What they didn’t find was the victim to come forward. Bullshit. They had the same information, if not more, that everyone in this thread had. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4224 "2012-09-21T18:45:04Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Bullshit. They had the same information, if not more, that everyone in this thread had. SA, please cite anything that says the jury concluded that Sandusky and the boy showered together without any sexual activity occurring. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4225 "2012-09-21T18:46:02Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Bullshit. They had the same information, if not more, that everyone in this thread had. There is a world of difference between a “not proven beyond a reasonable doubt” when there is no victim and a “it never happened”. You’re trying to draw a conclusion that simply isn’t supported by any evidence whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4226 "2012-09-21T18:55:00Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Not at all. There are certain experiences (parenthood, homelessness, being on a battlefield, to name 3) where experience is far, far more valuable than book knowledge. I defer to parents on the question of what it’s like to be a parent. I defer to the homeless on what it’s like to have nowhere to live. I defer to people who have served on the question of what it’s like to be in battle. But this debate is not about parenthood, and the simple fact that children are involved does not give parents some special insight into anything that we have been discussing in this thread. It’s an idiotic question, and has no bearing on whether **Starving Artist** ’s claims and arguments are or are not valid. Also, he’s just told you that he is, in fact a parent. By your ridiculous logic, this means that you should concede that he might have a point, because the fact of his parenthood gives him some special insight that non-parents in this situation lack. And, despite the fact that i agree with the majority in here, and disagree with **Starving Artist** , you should also conclude that i don’t really have a valid opinion because i don’t have children. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4227 "2012-09-21T19:01:42Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > SA, please cite anything that says the jury concluded that Sandusky and the boy showered together without any sexual activity occurring. Why? I’ve said in this very thread that Sandusky may well have been engaging in some sort of skeevy sexual misbehavior. > [@Jenaroph](#): > > And now, the victim HAS come forward, and is considering suing Penn State. Because they let him be butt-raped by Sandusky in the shower and did nothing. No, the _alleged_ victim has come forth. Curiously enough now that the trial is over and testimony and cross-examination aren’t in the offing. It remains to be seen if the complainant is legitimate or if his allegations are just a cash grab. > [@Hamlet](#): > > There is a world of difference between a “not proven beyond a reasonable doubt” when there is no victim and a “it never happened”. You’re trying to draw a conclusion that simply isn’t supported by any evidence whatsoever. The jury found that the information provided by Mike McQueary did not support a conviction on the charge of rape. That is what I’ve been arguing all through this thread and it’s what I’ve been saying since the trial was over. IIRC, Sandusky was convicted of other, relatively minor sexual offenses in regard to the shower room incident and I believe those convictions to be perfectly valid. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4228 "2012-09-21T19:02:43Z")
Y’know, even Charlie Sheen took a look back at his behavior after the fact, and apologized for his meltdown. **SA** , the “WINNING!” thing isn’t working too well for you either. Take a page out of Charlie Sheen’s book. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4229 "2012-09-21T19:02:45Z")
Time to unsubscribe. I’ve seen this show before… ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4230 "2012-09-21T19:10:11Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > Y’know, even Charlie Sheen took a look back at his behavior after the fact, and apologized for his meltdown. > > **SA** , the “WINNING!” thing isn’t working too well for you either. Take a page out of Charlie Sheen’s book. Nonsense! I was “WINNING!” Now I’ve WON! 😉 Charlie was under the influence of drugs (or perhaps their recent absence), whereas I’ve been under the influence of facts. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4231 "2012-09-21T19:15:22Z")
Sandusky was acquitted of one count of a sex offense against “Victim 2,” the then unknown boy McQueary saw him in the shower with, that count being involuntary deviate sexual intercourse. However, based on McQueary’s testimony Sandusky _was_ found guilty of the offenses of indecent assault, unlawful contact with minor, corruption of minors, and endangering a child’s welfare against Victim 2, so it’s not like he totally skated. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4232 "2012-09-21T19:18:11Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I think a more likely scenario, based upon Joe Paterno’s long standing reputation for integrity and good works, is that Curley advised Paterno that he and Schultz were trying to determine if what McQueary had told them rose to the level where it should be reported, and Paterno said something along the line of _“Well, I don’t know. He [Sandusky] seems to have a thing for hugging kids in the shower. I remember a couple of years ago this one kid’s mom became upset because he hugged her kid in the shower and she and she made accusations of some sort of sexual impropriety, but the authorities investigated it and nothing came of it. May be the same thing here, I don’t know. Just do whatever you think best.”_ Whereupon Curley decided to ask Sandusky about it, possibly with the idea in mind that he could suss out from Sandusky’s body English whether he was being truthful or not. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Nope, juries are just peachy. And in this case they found as I did, that what McQueary saw was not rape. You people refused to believe it, refused even to consider it, and you used it as a basis for your hatred of Joe Paterno, Penn State and me. But the jury ruled that I was right and you were wrong. The McQueary rape count was one of only three out of forty-eight Sandusky was acquitted of. So I was right, you and your coterie of hysterical nabobs were wrong, due process and justice prevailed, and Sandusky got what was coming to him as proven in a court of law. It was a glorious day, and I revelled as I basked in the triumph of reason over hysteria! I find it odd that you would use Paterno’s “long standing reputation for integrity and good works” in drawing a conclusion about his actions, but ignore multiple criminal convictions for child sex abuse in concluding what Jerry Sandusky was doing in the shower with a naked boy. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4233 "2012-09-21T19:24:01Z")
Yeah, well, you know, child molesters and boys sometime shower together. Doesnt’ mean anything was going on – get you’re mind out of the gutter. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4234 "2012-09-21T19:35:33Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > IIRC, Sandusky was convicted of other, relatively minor sexual offenses in regard to the shower room incident and I believe those convictions to be perfectly valid. The unlawful contact with a minor charge that he was convicted of committing against Victim 2 in the shower room is a 1st degree felony with a 20 year and $25,000 maximum sentence, the same penalty range as the offense he was acquitted of committing against that same victim. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4235 "2012-09-21T20:26:07Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Nonsense! I was “WINNING!” Now I’ve WON! 😉 The only thing you’ve “won” is the Official Disturbing Fuck Award. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4236 "2012-09-21T20:54:06Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I defer to parents on the question of what it’s like to be a parent. I defer to the homeless on what it’s like to have nowhere to live. I defer to people who have served on the question of what it’s like to be in battle. > > But this debate is not about parenthood, and the simple fact that children are involved does not give parents some special insight into anything that we have been discussing in this thread. It’s an idiotic question, and has no bearing on whether **Starving Artist** ’s claims and arguments are or are not valid. > > Also, he’s just told you that he is, in fact a parent. By your ridiculous logic, this means that you should concede that he might have a point, because the fact of his parenthood gives him some special insight that non-parents in this situation lack. And, despite the fact that i agree with the majority in here, and disagree with **Starving Artist** , you should also conclude that i don’t really have a valid opinion because i don’t have children. God, you’re daft. All I said that it provided us with insight as to the stage of life SA is in, not whether or not being a parent provides one with special insight re: pedophilia: > [@me](#): > > No, it goes to perspective. Are we listening to a college kid or somebody with kids of their own? Knowing this allows us to weigh your arguments against your experience with children and the responsibilities one has to them. The fact that my question touched on a sore spot of yours - well, deal with it. Take it to another thread. Or drop it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4237 "2012-09-21T20:54:16Z")
I’m pretty sure Sandusky doesn’t think _he’s_ won anything. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4238 "2012-09-21T20:59:44Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > The only thing you’ve “won” is the Official Disturbing Fuck Award. I submit that the real perverseness lies with people like you, **Guin**. It’s those of your ilk (see **Hentor’s** equation of “lining up boys” with sexual innuendo or those who’ve attempted to construe the paper towel tube into a substitute for young boy anuses rather than the mere physical challenge it was meant to be). It’s worthy of note that such implications were lost on me but not to the likes of you. Your minds are where the real sickness lies, kiddo. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4239 "2012-09-21T21:06:25Z")
You brought up that stupid paper towl tube to explicitly (no pun intended) address how difficult it would be to fuck a child - or a short adult, or whatever. And now you’ve got the grey, hairy balls to claim there was no sexual intent to that at all – just an innocent experiment dealing with physics? What exactly was I supposed to pump into that tube again? Keep digging, you utter moron. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4240 "2012-09-21T21:17:29Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The jury found that the information provided by Mike McQueary did not support a conviction on the charge of rape. That is what I’ve been arguing all through this thread and it’s what I’ve been saying since the trial was over. IIRC, Sandusky was convicted of other, relatively minor sexual offenses in regard to the shower room incident and I believe those convictions to be perfectly valid. I am astounded that you consider unlawful contact with a minor, a crime punishable by 20 years, is a “relatively minor sexual offense”. I’m not about to slog through this entire thread, but if the entirety of your point was that the specific kind of sexual abuse Victim 2 suffered at the hands of Sandusky, may not have been anal rape, I suppose my question would be “So fucking what?” Do you think the child somehow feels better thinking “well, at least it is possible for a jury to find I was only sexually assaulted, but not anally raped that one time”? Or that suddenly JoePa is blameless because there wasn’t enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Sandusky put his penis in a child’s anus when the child didn’t testify, but there was enough evidence that there was a sexual assault? This thread is massive, with a ton of posts by yourself, and I have no clue why the fuck you think the possibility that there is a difference between sexual assault and anal rape is some kind of point worth defending. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4241 "2012-09-21T21:25:59Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > You brought up that stupid paper towl tube to explicitly (no pun intended) address how difficult it would be to fuck a child - or a short adult, or whatever. And now you’ve got the grey, hairy balls to claim there was no sexual intent to that at all – just an innocent experiment dealing with physics? Horseshit. Utter, utter horseshit. I brought it up specifically to illustrate the difficulties a man of Sandusky’s height and age would have in attempting to engage in copulatory movement while in the position described by McQueary and at the distance from the floor where he’d have had to have been. There was considerable comment regarding the physics of it at both at the time and for some time afterward. Where were you? ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4242 "2012-09-21T21:37:07Z")
At least Sandusky had the good grace to die before his reputation was sullied beyond repair. Claiming victory because your champion wasn’t convicted of a crime due to his being too profoundly stupid to realize what was right in front of his nose, is hardly something to crow about. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=211) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=213)