# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 213
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4243 "2012-09-21T21:49:05Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > God, you’re daft. All I said that it provided us with insight as to the stage of life SA is in. It’s still completely irrelevant to this debate. You fail. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4244 "2012-09-21T21:50:10Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > At least Sandusky had the good grace to die before his reputation was sullied beyond repair. He did? I think you might mean Paterno. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4245 "2012-09-21T23:39:51Z")
The point IS, **Starving Artist** , that you were so insanely obsessed with the “physicalities” of it to be disturbing. Even when people told they had first hand experience of their own, sadly. You’re a real piece of work. As far as Paterno, have you read the Freeh report yet? ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4246 "2012-09-22T00:47:06Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > … > > I am. And you’d be hard pressed to find anyone who loves children more than I do. Yeah, that’s the problem. _You_ “love” the children with ridiculously weak arguments about why _they_ “just _couldn’t_ have been butt-raped” involving paper towel tubes, _you_ speculate on what would happen when _you_ “line up one hundred boys” and what-not, and then insist that it’s all just because of _your_ “love” for children. Try to imagine why we are suspicious of _you_, idiot. Here’s a helpful hint: [NAMBLA](http://www.nambla.org/). _You_ are sounding suspiciously like _them_ in your arguments (such as they are). And _you_ are doing your damnedest to make it sound even worse than that, whether or not **you** realize that fact… _You_ are either an actual “Kiddie-diddler”, or _you_’re utterly clueless. Take your pick of which group _you_ want to associate yourself with. Neither is particularly admirable, but you are stuck with whichever you choose, either way… As my father always used to say, when I was a kid, and did something stupid and embar_ass_ing: “You made your bed, now you have to sleep in it.” Here you go, asshole. You’ve stuck your dick in (the paper towel tube). It’s _not_ defensible. And _no one_ is going to try to defend an obvious idiot, such as yourself… ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4247 "2012-09-22T08:31:58Z")
I agree that being a parent doesn’t necessarily make you right or wrong in this case and I’m not convinced that insisting **SA** is a pedophile really helps anything. My view is that he’s not fighting this corner because he thinks this behavior is okay; he’s fighting it because it’s the one he’s chosen and dammit, he’s going to defend it even when the legal system and all the facts are against him. And he’s grasping at the very thinnest of straws here, claiming that the fact that Sandusky was acquitted on the rape charge means he was right all along, despite the fact that the reason the rape charge was unproven was that the victim wasn’t there to confirm or deny it, and the _even in the absence of the victim_, as noted above, Sandusky was found guilty of the offenses of indecent assault, unlawful contact with minor, corruption of minors, and endangering a child’s welfare with that child. That’s not even looking at the case with blinders on; that’s looking at it through that very thin straw and claiming all the bits one can’t see don’t exist. **Starving Artist** , Sandusky did Very Bad Things with that boy, and the court agreed. That they couldn’t confirm one particular bad thing without the victim’s testimony is not a demonstration that it didn’t happen, only that it couldn’t be proven. You can claim it’s “winning” all you like but it doesn’t prove you right or the rest of us wrong, and the preponderance of evidence is still on our side. But do cling tightly to that straw as you keep sinking, assuming you haven’t actually hit bottom yet. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4248 "2012-09-22T13:10:45Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > He did? > > I think you might mean Paterno. 🙂 Oops. Thanks for the correction! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4249 "2012-09-22T13:55:58Z")
Look, I’ve got a busy day ahead and am probably not to have time to address every false comment someone makes. But to address a few that have popped up overnight: No, **Guin** , there was no obsession with the salacious details. What there was was a stubborn, ongoing refusal on the part of posters such as yourself to look at the facts. Thus I had to keep escalating the point until you and those other posters were forced to come to grips with it. With regard to the lining up of a hundred boys thing, the context was in regard to the ridiculous assertion that hugging a kid in the shower was just as bad as raping him. My response was to say ‘let’s line up a hundred kids and ask them which they’d think worse,’ with money in the form of a wager to change hands based upon each kid’s answer. It makes more sense in that scenario to have them lined up so they answer one after the other rather than clustered about in a herd, all trying to answer at the same time. There is a reason why people line up at check stands, movies and cafeterias: it’s the most efficient way of dealing with large groups of people one at a time. Again, the idiotic presumption that there’s something erotic or salacious about the use of that phrase speaks only to the perverse thinking of the person making that claim. With regard to sleeping in the bed I made, I have no problem defending what I’ve said in this thread. What I object to is people being allowed to take potshots at me while my rebuttals are considered hijacks. The fact that Sandusky committed other crimes means nothing as to my stance having been vindicated in this thread. My position all along has been that what McQueary described was not consistent with what an objective look at the facts would conclude was rape. It’s also by far the point that brought the most strident disagreement and the most personal insults toward me. The jury, separarate and apart from all his other misdeeds, agreed with me that McQueary’s testimony did not support the contention that Sandusky was raping the boy in the shower room that night. So my position has been utterly vindicated in a court of law. To claim I’ve somehow lost this argument because Sandusky still committed other crimes is where the real straw-grasping is taking place. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4250 "2012-09-22T16:24:34Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > My position all along has been that what McQueary described was not consistent with what an objective look at the facts would conclude was rape. So, I’ll ask again: “So fucking what”. Do you think the child somehow feels better thinking “well, at least it is possible for a jury to find I was only sexually assaulted, but not anally raped that one time”? Or that suddenly JoePa is blameless because there wasn’t enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Sandusky put his penis in a child’s anus when the child didn’t testify, but there was enough evidence that there was a sexual assault?" ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4251 "2012-09-22T16:31:57Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The jury, separarate and apart from all his other misdeeds, agreed with me that McQueary’s testimony did not support the contention that Sandusky was raping the boy in the shower room that night. So my position has been utterly vindicated in a court of law. To claim I’ve somehow lost this argument because Sandusky still committed other crimes is where the real straw-grasping is taking place. Obligatory [Youtube link](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhRUe-gz690&feature=fvsr). Black Knight played by Special Guest Star **Starving Artist**. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4252 "2012-09-22T18:08:28Z")
I am starting to think SA is trolling. Or can he really be that fucking stupid? If he is not trolling, I think he is actually a danger to the children he says he has. If nothing else, he is to stupid to realize if they are in danger. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4253 "2012-09-22T21:01:19Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The jury, separarate and apart from all his other misdeeds, agreed with me that McQueary’s testimony did not support the contention that Sandusky was raping the boy in the shower room that night. So my position has been utterly vindicated in a court of law. No, what you now claim to be “your position” was **not** in fact what you were asserting when the argument began. What you were asserting was not merely that it’s not **proven beyond a reasonable doubt** that Sandusky committed penetrative anal rape on that boy in the shower (which is what the jury actually concluded, **and which nobody in this thread ever denied** ), _but rather that Sandusky in fact **couldn’t** have done so._ (As a sideline, you were also opining that what Sandusky was doing in the shower “was more likely skeevy but not necessarily damaging to the child”; see below.) _The jury found nothing at all to indicate that such anal rape was physically impossible or unlikely,_ which is the claim that you were arguing yourself blue in the, er, face for. So no, your position has not in the least been vindicated in a court of law. > [@Starving Artist in post #2293](#): > > Do you really think a six-foot, three-inch sixty-something man could be having full-blown penetrative anal sex with a ten-year old boy in the manner McQueary thought he saw? […] > > one thing I’d put money on is that it wasn’t penetrative anal sex. > [@Starving Artist in post #2304](#): > > You’re the one who brought up the “slapping sounds,” as if that were proof Sandusky was anally raping the boy. I don’t believe it was and I explained why […] > [@Starving Artist in post #2328](#): > > So all things considered I’m more certain than ever that whatever it was that was going on in that shower, it almost certainly was not anal rape, and was more likely something skeevy but not necessarily damaging to the child such as a faux-innocent hug or faux-innocent wrestling or horseplay. > [@Starving Artist in post #2385](#): > > My belief is that a 6’3" man would have to bend at the knees so far in order to acheive penetration and the make copulatory movements that his legs would doon give out if he didn’t fall over backwards first. […] All in all, I’m just pretty damn convinced that anal intercourse is not what McQueary saw > [@Starving Artist in post #2420](#): > > I submit that it would be virtually impossible for the average person to pull this off for more than a few seconds without his muscles failing and falling backwards or straight down onto the floor. > [@Starving Artist in post #2430---the infamous "Paper Towel Tube Test"](#): > > I have been very clear in my analyses to describe the difficulties that a 6’3" man would encounter in trying to have anal sex with a young boy in that position. […] > > Still, it would be easy enough for you or anyone else to test. Just squat down about as far relative to your height as Sandusky would have to for his, and try pumping away at a paper towel tube held in front of you. > [@Starving Artist in post #2435](#): > > […] what I’m claiming is almost certainly factual and true […] > [@Starving Artist in post #2487](#): > > The keep-away with soap thing was a suggestion to explain one possibility as to how they might have been in the position McQueary saw them in as opposed to rape […] > [@Starving Artist in post #2540](#): > > In my opinion the scenario in which Sandusky merely grabbed the kid to keep him from falling after slipping on the wet soapy floor is entirely reasonable. […] Frankly, I believe the slipped in the shower scenario - while still unlikely - is more credible and fits the facts as we know them much more closely than does the anal rape scenario. > [@Starving Artist in post #2661](#): > > I have little doubt myself that Sandusky is a serial rapist. I just don’t think that what McQueary happened upon was an incidence of it. > [@Starving Artist in post #2669](#): > > The evidence in the McQueary incident indicates to me that anal rape isn’t what he saw. > [@Starving Artist in post #2866](#): > > […] a close look at the specifics shows that Sandusky most likely is not guilty of the anal rape […] > [@Starving Artist in post #3166](#): > > Merely alternative possibilities to explain what was almost certainly not anal rape. > [@Starving Artist in post #3170](#): > > Also, a closer look at the facts makes it highly unlikely that what McQueary saw was actually anal rape. > [@Starving Artist in post #3219](#): > > I think it’s unlikely bordering on impossible that anal rape is what McQueary saw. > [@Starving Artist in post #3223](#): > > So 6’3" Jerry Sandusky would still have been having to carry on thrusting activity two feet off the ground, which I consider to be nigh on impossible. > [@Starving Artist in post #3263](#): > > I submit that what was going on was that wrestling or some other form of squicky behavior is what was going on, that Sandusky and the boy both had benign expressions on their faces, and that McQueary misinterpreted what he saw as “some form of intercourse” […] > [@Starving Artist in post #3302](#): > > Then in the course of the discussion it became apparent that the anal rape was very likely not what McQueary happened upon in the shower that night. **Starving Artist** , if you had merely been making the uncontroversial point “Hey, it hasn’t been **proven** that this shower incident involved rape by anal penetration, and we should not jump to the conclusion that **must** be what was going on”, then you’d be right, and you’d be justified in thinking the verdict bears you out. Many posters including myself were perfectly willing to acknowledge that at the time: > [@Kimstu in posts #3209](#): > > I certainly wouldn’t jump to the conclusion that Sandusky’s acts in the shower necessarily had to be anal rape, but your self-satisfied delusion that you’ve somehow logically or scientifically ruled out that possibility—or even determined it to be unlikely—is simply irrational. […] > > There’s a difference between (a) not prematurely jumping to conclusions and (b) twisting facts and logic into pretzels in an obsessive attempt to rule out or discredit certain possible conclusions which are, in fact, perfectly plausible. You keep doing the latter while trying to claim credit for the former. In fact, you were trying repeatedly and at great length to persuade us that there were specific and convincing reasons to believe that the shower incident **definitely wasn’t** anal rape. And there’s nothing in the verdict to bear that out at all. What you’re doing now, **Starving Artist** , is retroactively moving your goalposts and then declaring victory. You seem to forget that we can look these things up (if we’ve got suitable protective gear and wash thoroughly afterwards). ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4254 "2012-09-22T21:08:45Z")
> [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](#): > > I am starting to think SA is trolling. Let’s not be hasty… this thread is only 85 pages after all. > [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](#): > > Or can he really be that fucking stupid? Can be and is. But not mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4255 "2012-09-23T05:43:07Z")
Have any of the jurors commented after the fact about the McQueary testimony, and what their issues with the testimoney were specifically? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4256 "2012-09-23T13:49:23Z")
Nicely done Kimstu. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4257 "2012-09-23T14:36:05Z")
Yes, **Kimstu** should be canonized. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4258 "2012-09-23T15:03:45Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > Yes, **Kimstu** should be canonized. It is my very great honor to present **Kimstu** with the inaugural SDMB Golden Paper Towel Tube Award. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4259 "2012-09-23T15:06:33Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > It is my very great honor to present **Kimstu** with the inaugural SDMB Golden Paper Towel Tube Award. Which tradition dictates should be displayed sticking out of your ass. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4260 "2012-09-23T15:33:11Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > What you’re doing now, **Starving Artist** , is retroactively moving your goalposts and then declaring victory. Same as it ever was. Here’s what i said to **Starving Artist** after a similar bout of dishonesty five years ago: > [@Der Trihs, any chance of you giving it a rest?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/der-trihs-any-chance-of-you-giving-it-a-rest/400767/72): > > I’d accuse you of moving the goalposts to suit your needs, but that would be an understatement of the mendacity of your debating style. > > First you move the goalposts. > > Then you dig up the goalposts and hide them around behind the bleachers. > > Then you come back and fill in the hole where the goalposts were, and, while tamping down the last of the earth with your shovel, deny that the goalposts ever existed at all and insist that this has always been a cow paddock. > > Then, while your opposition wonders what the hell is going on, you put the goalposts back in place again and start shouting at him to hurry up and kick the ball already. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4261 "2012-09-23T15:48:51Z")
Keep fucking that towel tube, **SA**. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4262 "2012-09-23T16:36:09Z")
Oh, horseshit. She took a collection of posts that were addressed to different postets in regard to different questions or scenarios and is attempting to make it look like my positions were shifting on a whim. Yes, I do think anal rape is impossible based upon McQueary’s description of what he saw. It is an opinion I came to gradually as more time went by and I was able to glean more fact from all the thread’s noise and began to consider the physics involved. And sorry, **Kimstu** , you can stamp your feet and point to some post or another that has nothing to do with the central issue and claim for whatever reason I’ve not been vindicated, but the fact remains that I determined that what McQueary saw was not consistent with anal rape and the jury agreed. I was reviled, excoriated and accused of pedophilia myself for having arrived at this conclusion and yet there was nary a peep of acknowledgement or apology when the Sandusky jury arrived at the same conclusion. Face it, you people were wrong. And now, instead of admitting that you let your emotions run away with you, you’ve decided to ignore reality and cast about instead for some straw to grasp that will keep you from having to admit it. You are cowardly, dishonest, scurrilous and reprehensible people and I’m thankful you represent only a small fraction of the board’s postership, and, hopefully, humanity at large. So again, I was right, you were wrong; I win, you lose; finis! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=212) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=214)