# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 215
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4283 "2012-09-24T03:43:23Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > **RA** , I believe, and will always believe unless convincing evidence proves otherwise, that Joe Paterno had no idea what Jerry Sandusky was really doing with those kids, and that he felt at the time that he was following proper protocol in reporting the shower incident to the school’s administration. What would you consider to be “convincing evidence”? ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4284 "2012-09-24T03:48:11Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > **RA** , I believe, and will always believe unless convincing evidence proves otherwise, that Joe Paterno had no idea what Jerry Sandusky was really doing with those kids, and that he felt at the time that he was following proper protocol in reporting the shower incident to the school’s administration. And what about the fact that Curley changed his mind about reporting the incident after discussing with Paterno? If Paterno felt it should have been reported, it’s pretty unlikely his conversation would cause Curley to change his plans and do the opposite, right? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4285 "2012-09-24T03:48:31Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > …You’ve destroyed all credibility and any shred of respect that people had for you here. … Really? **SA** had a shred of credibility and respect _before_ this thread? Well, ignorance fought! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4286 "2012-09-24T04:02:34Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Oh, so he molested the kid, but he didn’t actually _rape_ him. Yes, but prior to the determination made by the trial jury even that wasn’t clear. For all you or anyone else here knew as a fact he had merely hugged the boy as he had another boy two years earlier, an incident which was investigated by the local authorities and resulted in no charges whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4287 "2012-09-24T04:09:35Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > And what about the fact that Curley changed his mind about reporting the incident after discussing with Paterno? > > If Paterno felt it should have been reported, it’s pretty unlikely his conversation would cause Curley to change his plans and do the opposite, right? I addressed this a couple of days ago. A search of my user name with “Freeh” as the keyword should turn up the post. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4288 "2012-09-24T04:20:05Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I admit to having never shown my family a Straight Dope thread. Are you scared to? Do you have a clue as to what their reaction to this thread would be? I would think you’d want to know. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4289 "2012-09-24T04:42:32Z")
Am I _scared to_? What is this this, 4th grade? You think wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4290 "2012-09-24T04:48:40Z")
Paterno was told that Sandusky was doing something sexual to a child in the showers at night. Sandusky was convicted of sexual crimes against that child in that very incident. To me, that tends to indicate that Paterno made the wrong choice in not making sure the crime was reported. But then, I don’t have the kind of genius that tells me not to report sexual crimes to the police (in order to be investigated) before I make a preliminary test on my own and determine if I think it was rape or not, or if it was more likely to be other sexual crimes that also carry 20 year sentences but are too minor to be reported. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4291 "2012-09-24T05:11:07Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I admit to having never shown my family a Straight Dope thread. I’m just wondering, why not? It was brought up a number of times in this thread. Are you assuming they’d be disgusted by your arguments? Or would they tell you that you have an obsession? Would you listen to them? Or just say “Do not!”. Look, if your family reads this and says “Good job. Nothing creepy about it.” then I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4292 "2012-09-24T05:37:06Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I addressed this a couple of days ago. A search of my user name with “Freeh” as the keyword should turn up the post. Oh yes, now I remember. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > So you find the imaginary conversation made up by Louis Freeh to be more plausible than the one made up by me? Fair enough, I suppose, but I don’t see what it proves. > > I am. And you’d be hard pressed to find anyone who loves children more than I do. Anyone who knows me well would happily and forcefully tell you that. But the fact that I love kids doesn’t mean that I reflexively toss my brain out the window whenever something bad happens to a child. Logic, common sense, due process and the facts still have an important roll to play. There is no rational benefit to an hysterical, unthinking lynch mob mentality no matter what the crime. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > IIRC correctly, Freeh based his conclusion on emails from Curley and Schultz which which indicated they intended to report McQueary’s allegation, but that Curley had second thoughts after discussing the matter with Paterno and decided that he’d rather ask Sandusky about it first. > > To my mind there are a couple of problems with this. First, it presumes that Paterno counseled Curley not to go to the authorities, and second, it implies that Paterno told Curley to go to Sandusky instead. > > I think a more likely scenario, based upon Joe Paterno’s long standing reputation for integrity and good works, is that Curley advised Paterno that he and Schultz were trying to determine if what McQueary had told them rose to the level where it should be reported, and Paterno said something along the line of _“Well, I don’t know. He [Sandusky] seems to have a thing for hugging kids in the shower. I remember a couple of years ago this one kid’s mom became upset because he hugged her kid in the shower and she and she made accusations of some sort of sexual impropriety, but the authorities investigated it and nothing came of it. May be the same thing here, I don’t know. Just do whatever you think best.”_ Whereupon Curley decided to ask Sandusky about it, possibly with the idea in mind that he could suss out from Sandusky’s body English whether he was being truthful or not. > > I think this scenario is every bit as likely, if not more so, than the one in which Freeh appears to conclude simply from the fact they met that Paterno advised Curley against going to the authorities. :dubious: In other words, your speculation is worth more, despite not having done any actual research, seen any documents, etc. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4293 "2012-09-24T09:49:05Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And how many times have I said that very same thing in this thread? > > I said there no rape; the jury said there was no rape. I completely agree that the jury’s verdict totally confirms the position that you are now **pretending** you were arguing for during the earlier course of the thread. What the jury’s verdict does **not** confirm or vindicate in any way is the position that you were **actually** arguing for during the earlier course of the thread. You argued, repeatedly, that _it was unlikely bordering on impossible that Sandusky was committing anal rape in the shower incident_. That was a ridiculous argument, and other posters very properly criticized it. The jury’s verdict says absolutely nothing to cast doubt on the **likelihood** or **possibility** of Sandusky’s committing anal rape at that time. All the verdict says is that it’s not **proven** that Sandusky was doing so—which, as I noted, nobody in this thread ever denied. Consequently, you are now making believe that the statement in the jury’s verdict is what you were arguing for all along. And at this point it well may be that, as **42fish** remarked, you really believe your own made-up version of these events, despite the contrary evidence of the actual posts in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4294 "2012-09-24T10:45:54Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It was up to a jury to decide what if any offenses were appropriate to convict Sandusky of. From Paterno’s perspective, very early on and knowing only of one previous incident two years before where Sandusky hugged a kid in the shower, it was investigated and nothing came of it, it was very likely simply another incident like that. > > I admit to having never shown my family a Straight Dope thread. If it were simply another incident like that, would he have been convicted of indecent contact with the child, with the definition shown above? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4295 "2012-09-24T12:02:09Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > For all you or anyone else here knew as a fact he had merely hugged the boy as he had another boy two years earlier, an incident which was investigated by the local authorities and resulted in no charges whatever. Except Paterno’s own testimony makes it clear this is a lie: \*"Well, I don’t know what you would call it. Obviously, he was doing something with the youngster. It was a sexual nature. I’m not sure exactly what it was. I didn’t push Mike to describe exactly what it was because he was very upset. Obviously, I was in a little bit of a dilemma since Mr. Sandusky was not working for me anymore. So I told — I didn’t go any further than that except I knew Mike was upset and I knew some kind of inappropriate action was being taken by Jerry Sandusky with a youngster."\* [Cite](http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/06/12/transcript-joe-paternos-grand-jury-testimony/) or, you could go with McQuery’s testimony, which included: \*"Less than 12 hours after he witnessed Jerry Sandusky with his arms wrapped around a young boy, molesting him in a locker room shower, Mike McQueary says he went to Joe Paterno’s home, sat at his kitchen table and told him he’d seen something “way over the lines and extremely sexual in nature.” ““There’s no question in my mind that I conveyed to them that I saw Jerry in the showers and that it was severe sexual acts and that it was wrong and over the line,” he said.” ““I would have said that Jerry was in there in very close proximity to a boy with his arms wrapped around him. I said I heard slapping sounds. I described it was extremely sexual and that some kind of intercourse was going on,” he said.”\* No that it will do a single thing to change your idiotic point, but hey, for those reading along it might help.l ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4296 "2012-09-24T14:39:10Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > It is to laugh…and believe me, I am! and there I was, thinking nothing good could come out of rape! I clearly need to brush up on my Carlin. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4297 "2012-09-24T14:48:25Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Yes, but prior to the determination made by the trial jury even that wasn’t clear. For all you or anyone else here knew as a fact he had merely hugged the boy as he had another boy two years earlier, an incident which was investigated by the local authorities and resulted in no charges whatever. I can’t tell if this is goalpost moving or just a magical handwave away of 95% of this thread, but either way it’s breathtaking in its brazenness. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4298 "2012-09-24T14:56:59Z")
Christmas has come early to the BBQ pit, with SA’s return to this thread. I am delighted beyond words. You can’t PAY for entertainment like this, people. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4299 "2012-09-24T15:31:28Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > I can’t tell if this is goalpost moving or just a magical handwave away of 95% of this thread, but either way it’s breathtaking in its brazenness. I believe it’s taking the goalposts to the quarry and throwing them down there. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4300 "2012-09-24T16:02:57Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > What would you consider to be “convincing evidence”? A Youtube video of Sandusky successfully fucking the paper towel tube. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4301 "2012-09-24T16:10:49Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Christmas has come early to the BBQ pit, with SA’s return to this thread. I am delighted beyond words. You can’t PAY for entertainment like this, people. You can, but it involves going to a particularly unsavory neighborhood in Tiajuana. Thanks to SA, we can get all the skeeviness of a donkey show without leaving our computers. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4302 "2012-09-24T16:23:08Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > I can’t tell if this is goalpost moving or just a magical handwave away of 95% of this thread, but either way it’s breathtaking in its brazenness. 95% of this thread deserves to be handwaved away. It’s based on actions that took place during the ten years after the shower room incident, yet the shower room incident is what has been held forth to insist that Joe Paterno knew Jerry Sandusky was raping children and a.) didn’t care; b.) was raping children himself; c.) intentionally covered it up for the sake of his football program. In point of fact Paterno did not know what Sandusky was doing, as evinced by his own statement as quoted by **Hamlet** above. All he knew was that two years previous a woman had made charges of sexual impropriety involving a hug in the shower that was investigated and dismissed, and that Mike McQueary had seen Sandusky and a boy in the shower and McQueary seemed to be of the same opinion as the mother had been previously. Clearly he couldn’t _know_ something sexual was going on because he wasn’t there, he only knew McQueary thought it was. So, Paterno has not come close to having been shown to know that Sandusky was raping children all those years; he has not come close to having been shown to having been covering it up to protect his football program; he has not remotely been shown to be a pedophile himself; the horrific rape which the board’s poster’s identified with so strongly to make them lose their minds and accuse Paterno of all this stuff never in fact happened (and hopefull there’ll be no disagreement that whatever did happen was much less difficult for the child than full on anal rape) as determined by a court of law, and in each of these points my position is either yet to be refuted or I have been totally vindicated. Everything everyone is bringing up has been argued here time after time already and I’m not going to spend months arguing it again. The obsession here is not mine. To the degree that I’m obsessed at all, it’s with not allowing a hysterical, mob mentality prevail. And happily, we’ve reached the point where I’ve done that. I’m clearly outnumbered and you people can continue to stick your fingers in your ears and argue the same points over and over again for as long as you want, but I’m not gonna stick around and play your game. If you get some new evidence that Paterno knew Sandusky was anally raping kids, or subjecting them to oral sex, or committing any other serious forms of sexual abuse and sought to cover it up, or that Paterno was raping kids himself (as has been so idiotically asserted in this thread as well), let me know and we’ll talk. Otherwise, you’ve got the sandbox to yourselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=214) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=216)