# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 232
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4623 "2012-10-01T18:51:45Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I think you’re lying. It simply isn’t possible to stand with feet at normal width, lower your pelvis to two feet off the ground, and thrust up and forward and back and down with the thrust beginning at a point sufficiently forward to simulate a person in front of you. Your ass and your balance shifts backwards as you squat and it simply isn’t possible. I posted a video as proof, I’m not going to link because it’s NSFW but you will find it if you google “man fucks paper towel tube”. > [@](#): > > I’m also surprised to hear that a man of your alleged height and suggested fitness level would willingly admit to being able to fit inside a paper towel tube. This also gives me pause as to your veracity, as paper towel tubes really aren’t all that wide. 😃 I used a big gulp cup. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4624 "2012-10-01T18:56:25Z")
> [@Jack Batty](#): > > I mean, really. > > You people are reading this, shit, right? “Alternative innocent explanation?” “Perfectly adequate defense?” > > This is his rationalization for the “hey, maybe he just caught the boy as he was slipping and that’s why he was holding him by the waist, while they were naked in a deserted shower room in the middle of the night” post. > > Bonus points for “no previous record of sexual misconduct.” Chrissakes, by the end of the thread, the creepy fucker will canonize Sandusky. Calm down, **Jack**. There is no attempt at canonization of Sandusky going at all, but what McQueary saw wasn’t rape so there had to be some other explanation. The blurb you quoted was but one of several I tossed out as examples, including, if you’ll recall, that he was up to something sexual but still short of rape. You _do_ remember that? Don’t you? **Jack**? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4625 "2012-10-01T19:00:32Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Calm down, **Jack**. There is no attempt at canonization of Sandusky going at all, but what McQueary saw wasn’t rape so there had to be some other explanation. Your certainty makes me giggle. You really, honestly think you know for certain that it wasn’t rape. Really. You’re not kidding. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4626 "2012-10-01T19:00:46Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And so **MrDibble** , as we finally learn from your last post, you are not able to discuss what happened to you as dispassionately and as untroublingly as you said in the beginning. Now you expect, after having implied that you could discuss the subject rationally and without undue emotional reaction, that I should have considered your feelings as a victim in positing that your recollections may have been in error, and further than you seem to have expected me to divine such details as length of time and other ugly details despite my having never discussed your assault with you in detail. Both seem unreasonable and emotionally based to me. I’m very sorry for what happened to you and believe me if it were in my power to reverse it so it never happened I’d be delighted beyond words to be able to do just that. But I can’t, and frankly, this thread is basically an abstract discussion amongst people not involved with any of the participants, and as you’ve shown in the post you just made, to try to discuss it with actual rape victims is fraught with emotional pitfalls that lie outside the realm of both fact and such things as are common knowledge in forensics and evidence gathering, such as flaws in eyewitness testimony. So I’m sorry, but I’m simply not going to discuss this with you any further. “I reject your reality and substitute my own”. You know, I don’t think Adam Savage was being entirely serious when he said that. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4627 "2012-10-01T19:05:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Your certainty makes me giggle. You really, honestly think you know for certain that it wasn’t rape. Really. You’re not kidding. Yep, I - and subsequently the jury - have determined that no conclusive proof exists that what Mike McQueary saw was rape. Why you aren’t also giggling and expressing incredulity at the jury is anyone’s guess. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4628 "2012-10-01T19:12:31Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Yep, I - and subsequently the jury - have determined that no conclusive proof exists that what Mike McQueary saw was rape. Yes, it wasn’t rape, it was only Indecent Assault, Unlawful Contact with Minors, Corruption of Minors, and Endangering the Welfare of Children. What the hell is wrong with you people, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4629 "2012-10-01T19:20:23Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Yes, it wasn’t rape, it was only Indecent Assault, Unlawful Contact with Minors, Corruption of Minors, and Endangering the Welfare of Children. What the hell is wrong with you people, anyway? Well, to be honest we only knew that once the trial was over, didn’t we? And even then only because the jury already knew of Sandusky’s many other offenses with children. He was investigated two years previously after hugging a boy in the shower during which he might very well have been spotted in a similar pose and nothing at all came of it. P.S. - It wouldn’t be necessary for me to keep posting the same things over and over again if people like you didn’t keep posting the same things that had already been posted over and over again. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4630 "2012-10-01T19:21:24Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Really haven’t seen much demolishment there, old chum. Of course not. You’ve based a great many self-satisfactory conclusions on the flawed premise that your arguments have not been successfully (or even seriously) challenged. But that’s okay, since I’m posting for my amusement, not your enlightenment. > [@](#): > > Sandusky remains acquitted of the shower room rape charge, and Paterno remains blissfully free of any evidence whatsoever that he engaged in any sort of knowing coverup, long-term or otherwise, of child rape to protect his football program or for any other reason. Well, Sadusky got convicted of enough other charges, including of assault in the shower incident McQueary witnessed, and Paterno he got fired and his reputation is forever tainted. I find that to be a satisfactory result, or at least as satisfactory as I could reasonably expect. > [@](#): > > As long as those remain in effect it is unquestionable that I have won the thread, and you have put nary a dent…nay, even a scratch, in either. Yeah, I’ll defend your right to keep telling yourself that. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4631 "2012-10-01T19:31:29Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > [ > Just so we’re clear here, you are saying that your sex assault investigations have informed you that a man 6’3" in height can simply stand upright with his legs fully extended while simultaneously performing anal rape on a boy of ten, in which his pelvis would have to be some two feet off the ground? I’m sorry, does it say somewhere that he was nailed to a board and couldn’t move? Those goal posts are flying around. I will type this slowly so you can understand. I find no reason to believe that Sandusky could not have raped the victim in the shower. None. It is not physically impossible. Not even close. That is with years of training and experience. Which you don’t have. Unless you wish to admit something now. It will be just between you and me I promise. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4632 "2012-10-01T19:38:55Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, Sadusky got convicted of enough other charges, including of assault in the shower incident McQueary witnessed, and Paterno he got fired and his reputation is forever tainted. I find that to be a satisfactory result, or at least as satisfactory as I could reasonably expect. I too find Sandusky’s convictions satisfying. With regard to what happened to Paterno, well, you know, wrongs happen every day. I can’t do anything about that but it doesn’t make them any less wrong. But what I can do is fight against idiocy, presumption and hysteria in a Straight Dope message board thread, and at that I’ve been quite effective. Almost no one is claiming anymore that Joe Paterno was part of a sadistic Penn State cabal of child abusers who conspired to cover up for each other in order to protect the school, its football program and, of course, themselves. And no one seems all that seriously inclined to argue that Sandusky was actually raping that boy in the shower. Instead the meme has shifted to “Oh, yeah? Oh, yeah? Well, he was convicted of doing some stuff that night!” I think it’s pretty obvious that I’m responsible for bringing people around on those issues…except for the small coterie still hanging on and refusing to accept defeat, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4633 "2012-10-01T19:39:49Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I’m sorry, does it say somewhere that he was nailed to a board and couldn’t move? Those goal posts are flying around. I will type this slowly so you can understand. I find no reason to believe that Sandusky could not have raped the victim in the shower. None. It is not physically impossible. I suppose the best evidence one way or the other would have been to quickly identify the boy, give him a medical examination and a gentle-as-possible interview. I guess it would have been nice for McQueary and Paterno to follow-up and take some steps toward accomplishing this, instead of just hunkering down in silence and hoping for the best. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4634 "2012-10-01T19:41:56Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Sandusky remains acquitted of the shower room rape charge, and Paterno remains blissfully free of any evidence whatsoever that he engaged in any sort of knowing coverup, long-term or otherwise, of child rape to protect his football program or for any other reason. > > As long as those remain in effect it is unquestionable that I have won the thread, and you have put nary a dent…nay, even a scratch, in either. Sandusky, whom you suggested with a straight face might’ve just been innocently horsing around with a young boy in the shower, is a convicted child molester who was found guilty of 45 counts of sexual abuse and will die in prison. Paterno is completely disgraced, and his legacy will be that of a liar whose willful inaction helped abet the crimes of a child rapist. And you, **Starving Artist** , have lowered your own standing from that of a slightly buffoonish—if generally harmless—old codger with a quaintly smudged set of rose-colored Coke bottle glasses to perhaps the most abject laughingstock the board has ever seen. Enjoy the taste of victory. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4635 "2012-10-01T19:44:53Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I too find Sandusky’s convictions satisfying. With regard to what happened to Paterno, well, you know, wrongs happen every day. Rights, too, on occasion. > [@](#): > > But what I can do is fight against idiocy, presumption and hysteria in a Straight Dope message board thread, and at that I’ve been quite effective. And it amuses me to rebut you in my non-idiotic, non-presumptive and non-hysterical manner. …and the rest of your post is just unsupported self-congratulation. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4636 "2012-10-01T20:00:32Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I’m sorry, does it say somewhere that he was nailed to a board and couldn’t move? Those goal posts are flying around. I will type this slowly so you can understand. I find no reason to believe that Sandusky could not have raped the victim in the shower. None. It is not physically impossible. Not even close. That is with years of training and experience. Which you don’t have. Unless you wish to admit something now. It will be just between you and me I promise. You talk a lot about your experience and make a lot of declarations and you make a lot of snide insinuations about my psyche. But you offer no specifics, and you still don’t despite my having asked you directly to do so. Yes, Sandusky could have raped the boy in the shower…at some other time. But neither the trial jury nor I believe that what McQueary described was consistent with such a conclusion. Why are you not questioning the pedophilic instincts of the jury, I wonder? Hmm? Look, here’s the deal with me: you don’t charge people with crimes if the evidence doesn’t support it. A guy may have robbed ten drug stores and shot the pharmacist during nine of those robberies, but if you want to claim he also shot the tenth guy when what he really did was beat him up, and then tell me that according to your experience he very well may have shot the guy, I’m gonna say where are the bullet holes and call bullshit on charging him with shooting that tenth guy! As a cop you should know perfectly well that in this country we have processes in place specifically designed to protect us from being convicted of crimes based on assumption of guilt not supported by evidence, and from public and police and prosecutorial wrongdoing. Once you start assuming people to be guilty of crimes simply because they’ve committed similar crimes at other times, or because that particular crime especially pisses you off, or because the suspect is an all around bad guy, than at that point you become a far greater threat to the innocent and to society than the people you’re trying to prosecute. Now, I ask you again: what is it about all that makes you think I’m deluded and unhinged? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4637 "2012-10-01T20:04:37Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Yep, I - and subsequently the jury - have determined that no conclusive proof exists that what Mike McQueary saw was rape. > > Why you aren’t also giggling and expressing incredulity at the jury is anyone’s guess. Because the jury is not _certain_ that it was not rape. You are _certain_. You have no doubt. You _know_ it was not rape. You’re probably the only person on the planet who is certain about what happened in that shower (except perhaps for Sandusky and his victim, perhaps). ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4638 "2012-10-01T20:08:32Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Let’s not forget that I trotted that out as a possible alternative innocent explanation which would fit with what McQueary saw and could be arguable in a court of law. As I’ve said at least a couple of time before, someone other than Sandusky with no previous record of sexual misconduct would most likely never find himself even brought to trial over having been seen as McQueary described, and if he had the scenario described above could serve as a perfectly adequate defense. Sandusky had the goddamned Lionel Hutz in real life representing him at trial and he still didn’t argue what you’re suggesting “could be arguable in a court of law” That should tell you just how fucking retarded your legal analysis is. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4639 "2012-10-01T20:10:54Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You talk a lot about your experience and make a lot of declarations and you make a lot of snide insinuations about my psyche. But you offer no specifics, and you still don’t despite my having asked you directly to do so. > > Yes, Sandusky could have raped the boy in the shower…at some other time. But neither the trial jury nor I believe that what McQueary described was consistent with such a conclusion. Why are you not questioning the pedophilic instincts of the jury, I wonder? Hmm? Because you are totally and hilariously certain. You have no doubt whatsoever. It’s amazing. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4640 "2012-10-01T20:14:51Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And so **MrDibble** , as we finally learn from your last post, you are not able to discuss what happened to you as dispassionately and as untroublingly as you said in the beginning. I’m sorry, where did I say anything of the sort? I’m “over” my rape, but I’m certainly not dispassionate about it, especially when people try and make facile comparisons to cast doubt on the veracity of my experience to serve their molestor-protector-apologetics. > [@](#): > > Now you expect, after having implied that you could discuss the subject rationally and without undue emotional reaction Yeah, you can point to where I “implied” any such thing, right? > [@](#): > > you seem to have expected me to divine such details as length of time and other ugly details despite my having never discussed your assault with you in detail. You seemed to have “divined” enough to know the “material differences” are enough to discount my experience. > [@](#): > > Both seem unreasonable and emotionally based to me. I’m very sorry for what happened to you and believe me if it were in my power to reverse it so it never happened I’d be delighted beyond words to be able to do just that. But I can’t, and frankly, this thread is basically an abstract discussion amongst people not involved with any of the participants, and as you’ve shown in the post you just made, to try to discuss it with actual rape victims is fraught with emotional pitfalls that lie outside the realm of both fact and such things as are common knowledge in forensics and evidence gathering, such as flaws in eyewitness testimony. So I’m sorry, but I’m simply not going to discuss this with you any further. Oh, get your head out your ass, suddenly you’re all about the “common knowledge in forensics,” when you’ve had an experienced cop in this very fucking thread telling you what you said is impossible, is indeed possible. Real knowledge beats “common knowledge” hands down, especially when such common knowledge includes “it’s not standing if you bend your knees even a little”:smack: And you’re “not going to discuss it” because my personal testimony just makes a complete mockery of any pretence of a contorted anatomically-incorrect argument you imagined you had. It’s that simple. Reality will trump bullshit contrived thought experiment every time. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4641 "2012-10-01T20:16:11Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > And you, **Starving Artist** , have lowered your own standing from that of a slightly buffoonish—if generally harmless—old codger with a quaintly smudged set of rose-colored Coke bottle glasses to perhaps the most abject laughingstock the board has ever seen. > > Enjoy the taste of victory. I realize this is the fond hope of the likes of you and **MizWhatsit** , but believe me this line of attack gets nowhere with me. So stuff it, mmkay? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/4642 "2012-10-01T20:22:30Z")
Suuuure. That’s why you quit all posting for all those days…but of course, it gets nowhere with you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=231) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=233)