# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/461 "2011-11-10T06:06:14Z")
> [@Da\_Mikster](#): > > At some point is anyone going to step back and say, “Wait a fucking minute?” Probably not. A lot of sportscasters don’t like JoePa… BUT Let’s look at stuff objectively for a minute.. > > 1. in 1998 Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar decided there would be no criminal charges for the first shower incident The university did NOT “sweep it under the rug” > 2. June 1999 – Sandusky retires from Penn State. > 3. Fall 2000 – A janitor named James Calhoun observes Sandusky in the showers of the Lasch Football Building with a young boy. Calhoun was a temporary employee and never makes a report to campus police. > 4. March 1, 2002 – A Penn State graduate assistant (who is now an assistant coach at the University) enters the locker room at the Lasch Football Building. and sees Sandusky in the showers with a 10yo boy. The graduate assistant tells his father immediately. But doesn’t tell Paterno until the next day. What he specifically told Paterno, has not been mentioned. > 5. March 3, 2002 – Paterno calls Tim Curley, Penn State Athletic Director to his home the next day and reports a version of what the grad assistant had said. _Except Paterno wasn’t an eyewitness, so anything he reported was hearsay._ - > 6.March 2002 – Later in the month the graduate assistant is called to a meeting with Curley and (now)Senior Vice President for Finance and Business Gary Schultz (who was, at the time head of the campus police, people!). The grad assistant reports what he has seen and Curley and Schultz say they will look into it. > 6. March 27, 2002 (approximate) – The graduate assistant hears from Curley. He is told that Sandusky’s locker room keys are taken away and that the incident has been reported to The Second Mile. **The graduate assistant is never questioned by university police and no other entity conducts an investigation until the graduate assistant testifies in Grand Jury in December 2010.** –\* Except Schultz WAS the head of the police, remember? So he DID talk to ‘the police’… another half truth.\* Was the University negligent in not contacting the County DA? Those files, if there were any, are missing… and so is DA Ray Gricar, btw - he is assumed to have committed suicide and has been declared dead. > 7. Nov. 7, 2011 – Pennsylvania Attorney General Linda Kelly says Paterno is not a target of the investigation into how the school handled the accusations Meanwhile State Police Commissioner Frank Noonan decides to make some political hay at Paterno’s expense saying he met his legal obligation, but not his ‘moral’ one. > ( And the grand jury testimony is given to the press - ensuring an impartial jury will be damned hard to find. Probably violating the rights of Sandusky, Curley, and Schultz to due process…) > 8. Nov 9, JoePa announces he will retire at the end of the season, saying he wished he “had done more.” > 9. Under pressure from politicos, press, and alumni, the school trustees perform an act of extreme CYA, and decide to fire him anyway. > > "What if it was my kid?: I’d want JUSTICE, not REVENGE. This is NOT\*\* justice\*\*, not for those kids, not for Joe Paterno, not even particularly for Sandusky. It’s a public humiliation in the kangaroo court of the press. The right of “presumed innocent until proven guilty” be damned. I think there are a few omissions here… #3. Calhoun witnesses Sandusky performing oral sex on the boy, and reports it to his supervisor. Another janitor sees the pair in the shower together, but apparently does not see sexual activity. The supervisor tells him who he can make a report to. Calhoun doesn’t make any further report. It would be interesting to know if the same reporting requirements were the law in 2000. #4. Graduate assistant sees Sandusky berforming anal sex on the boy. $6. Gary Schultz was not the “head of the campus police” in any practical sense. As a senior vice president for Business and Finance, the campus police one one of numerous divisions reporting to him. It was a relationship more akin to being a mayor whose police chief reported budgetary and crime statistics to him. Schultz could not be considered a “law enforcement officer” by any stretch of imagination. Oh, and the fact that he apparently never discussed it with anyone within the campus police is why he is now facing criminal charges. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/462 "2011-11-10T07:02:18Z")
Thanks for the information on Schultz, guys, but Curley brought Schultz along to quiz McQueary and I think it’s safe to assume it wasn’t because a business and finance guy would be needed in the imvestigation. Would it not be reasonable to think that by virtue of his being titular head of the campus police, Schultz would be in a position to set the wheels in motion with the campus police if and when on-campus criminal activity warranted it? I would certainly think so. And if so, I think it would be reasonable for Paterno to expect his involvement as well. ---
**Author:** ![Da\_Mikster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Da\_Mikster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Da_Mikster)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/463 "2011-11-10T07:08:04Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I think there are a few omissions here… > > #3. Calhoun witnesses Sandusky performing oral sex on the boy, and reports it to his supervisor. Another janitor sees the pair in the shower together, but apparently does not see sexual activity. The supervisor tells him who he can make a report to. Calhoun doesn’t make any further report. It would be interesting to know if the same reporting requirements were the law in 2000. > > #4. Graduate assistant sees Sandusky berforming anal sex on the boy. > > $6. Gary Schultz was not the “head of the campus police” in any practical sense. As a senior vice president for Business and Finance, the campus police one one of numerous divisions reporting to him. It was a relationship more akin to being a mayor whose police chief reported budgetary and crime statistics to him. Schultz could not be considered a “law enforcement officer” by any stretch of imagination. > > Oh, and the fact that he apparently never discussed it with anyone within the campus police is why he is now facing criminal charges. I omitted your expansion on #4 simply because I was being polite. $6 “Mr. Schultz oversaw the school’s human resources, police department,” So both personnel and police were under him. An investigator, no, head of the police, yes. I don’t fault your asessment of Schultz’s actions. But would ask why that should be Coach Paterno’s “fault”? The whole damned thing against Paterno has been nothing but a witch hunt. It didn’t matter if he was guilty of ANYTHING, people were howling for blood - reason, due process, and guilt or innocence all be damned. Old Joe was the most visible symbol of Penn State football, therefore he must go… lynch mob mentality at it’s finest.. The Trustees did nothing noble tonight, they simply, and cynically chose to attempt to shield the school from further financial liability, that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/464 "2011-11-10T07:29:41Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Thanks for the information on Schultz, guys, but Curley brought Schultz along to quiz McQueary and I think it’s safe to assume it wasn’t because a business and finance guy would be needed in the imvestigation. Would it not be reasonable to think that by virtue of his being titular head of the campus police, Schultz would be in a position to set the wheels in motion with the campus police if and when on-campus criminal activity warranted it? I would certainly think so. And if so, I think it would be reasonable for Paterno to expect his involvement as well. And the reasonableness of that expectation is the reason Paterno is not facing any criminal charges. If you look at the public structure of the college administration, he reported to his superior. In actual fact, Paterno had much more clout and authority at PSU than those who were nominally his superiors. In actual fact, he participated in the coverup of the rape of a child on the campus of the university. Legally he appears to be off the hook for it. Morally is another story. Universities DEPEND on donor contributions. Hearing that the long time highly-thought-of worshipped in football circles head coach not reporting sexual assault of a child in the locker room could result in a quite a few checkbooks being replaced in a few desk drawers if the Board of Trustees doesn’t appear to be taking it seriously. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/465 "2011-11-10T07:55:54Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Excellent post, **Da Mikster** (and those of **brickbakon** as well). Won’t make a dime’s worth of difference around here of course, but excellent post nontheless. Guess if you’re [into plagiarism](http://espn.go.com/ncf/conversations/_/id/7212054/key-dates-penn-state-nittany-lions-sex-abuse-case), it might be. Read the rest of the page – it’s been refuted to hell and back at the original source. So fuck the “excellence” you ignorant baboon. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/466 "2011-11-10T08:00:29Z")
## As for the firing, no other option left. However, lots of cleaning up left to do. **brickbacon** , I’ll respond as times allows. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/467 "2011-11-10T08:16:56Z")
> [@SnakesCatLady](#): > > And the reasonableness of that expectation is the reason Paterno is not facing any criminal charges. If you look at the public structure of the college administration, he reported to his superior. > > In actual fact, Paterno had much more clout and authority at PSU than those who were nominally his superiors. > > In actual fact, he participated in the coverup of the rape of a child on the campus of the university. You can believe this all you want but there is no “actual fact” so far even to suggest he did any such thing. And it doesn’t matter at all how much power he had if he felt he was doing the right and proper thing, and at the time he had no reason to think that he wasn’t. All this stuff about what he should have known or how he should have exercised his power is nothing but Monday morning quarterbacking based upon a whole heap of self-serving presumption. I’d be willing to wager that you can’t provide one shred of evidence that Paterno knowingly played along with any cover up. In fact, I’d wager that at this point you can’t prove a cover up even happened. It’s far more likely that Curley and Schultz asked Sandusky about it, he denied it, and, not knowing who the child was and having no other evidence, the investigation simply died of evidentiary starvation. I don’t expect that will matter to you, but in the real world of reputations, families, slander and lawsuits, the authorities have to have more to go on than one person’s allegation that a man is guilty of raping _someone_. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/468 "2011-11-10T08:28:49Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Guess if you’re [into plagiarism](http://espn.go.com/ncf/conversations/_/id/7212054/key-dates-penn-state-nittany-lions-sex-abuse-case), it might be. > > Read the rest of the page – it’s been refuted to hell and back at the original source. So fuck the “excellence” you ignorant baboon. Hey, **Red** , long time no see! Been hoping you’re still off the sauce, but these posts of yours are giving me pause. Anyway, you old mental amoeba you, I hope all is well with you. Don’t be such astranger, mmkay? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Da\_Mikster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Da\_Mikster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Da_Mikster)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/469 "2011-11-10T09:13:21Z")
Plagiarism? Yes, I used the list… to correct it’s possibly purposeful omissions. A half truth intended to slander is no better than an outright lie. Sandusky may have enjoyed screwing little boys, but the media hacks and too many of you are enjoying screwing Paterno. You cannot set aside the rule of law when it suits you, either. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/470 "2011-11-10T09:37:39Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Not according to the [Grand Jury Presentment](http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/11/07/sandusky_grand_jury_presentment.pdf?hpt=hp_t1): > [@](#): > > The graduate assistant and his father decided that the graduate assistant had to promptly report what he has seen to Coach Joe Paterno… The next morning, a Saturday, the graduate assistant telephoned Paterno and went to Paterno’s home, where he reported what he had seen. And how does that excuse Paterno’s inaction, given he knew of Sandusky’s history? ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/471 "2011-11-10T09:43:43Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Hey, **Red** , long time no see! Been hoping you’re still off the sauce, but these posts of yours are giving me pause. > > Anyway, you old mental amoeba you, I hope all is well with you. Don’t be such astranger, mmkay? 🙂 You trying to hide your abject ignorance behind this reunion? ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/472 "2011-11-10T10:09:02Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > (Mandatory disclaimer about innocent until proven guilty, etc). > > I think there’s a 50-50 chance Paterno is forced out before the season ends. I think there’s a zero percent chance he is back next year. The stench is overwhelming and goes back far, far too long - by all accounts it goes back to 1998. How many kids were molested after that? > > Looks like Paterno won’t face jail time, but R.P. McMurphy has it right: His legacy will now forever be ‘the guy that helped and protected a child molester for almost 10 years’. Hope he enjoyed those 409 wins, 'cause he’s going to have to spend the rest of his life thinking about the dozens of kids that he allowed to be molested right under his very nose. I have a really dumb question. Keeping in mind I really do not follow sports, and I am not entirely certain what the scandal is exactly. This guy is in college football, yes? Aren’t most guys in college 18 and older? So how is it pedophilia if they are that age? And even if they are 17, it would be ephebiphilia, not pedophilia anyway. Not to mention, what is the age of majority in Pennsylvania for males? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/473 "2011-11-10T10:15:43Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I have a really dumb question. Keeping in mind I really do not follow sports, and I am not entirely certain what the scandal is exactly. > > This guy is in college football, yes? Aren’t most guys in college 18 and older? So how is it pedophilia if they are that age? And even if they are 17, it would be ephebiphilia, not pedophilia anyway. Not to mention, what is the age of majority in Pennsylvania for males? Would it kill you to read the OP? Sandusky was seen raping a \*\*ten-year-old \*\*boy and having oral sex with another. I hope you’ll agree that’s well below the age of consent even if the boy was a willing participant, which by all accounts he was not. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/474 "2011-11-10T11:00:26Z")
How about McQueary? He still needs to go. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/475 "2011-11-10T11:21:02Z")
1998: Sandusky is investigated and andmonished not to shower with young boys (like an adult has to be admonished not to shower with young boys). Certainly, Paterno knew of these facts. 2002: McQueary informs Paterno that he witnessed Sandusky in the shower possibly having anal sex with a young boy. 2002: Paterno (eventually) informs Penn St. adminstration (but not law enforcement) what McQueary reported to him. 2002: Paterno, apparently thinking his obligation was done, does nothing for 9 years. Given Paterno knew of Sandusky’s history, he felt no need to follow up with the non-investigation that didn’t take place in the intervening time. That a young boy’s livelihood was at stake apparently had no impact on “The Coach.” ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/476 "2011-11-10T11:22:15Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > How about McQueary? He still needs to go. Yes. I’m sure he’s done too. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/477 "2011-11-10T11:42:29Z")
Penn State students threw a tantrum last night. While protesting JoPa’s firing they overturned a news truck, pulled down a light post and got pepper sprayed. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/478 "2011-11-10T11:46:57Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Penn State students threw a tantrum last night. While protesting JoPa’s firing they overturned a news truck, pulled down a light post and got pepper sprayed. This is what millions of years of [del]devolution[/del] evolution has given us. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/479 "2011-11-10T11:48:38Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Penn State students threw a tantrum last night. While protesting JoPa’s firing they overturned a news truck, pulled down a light post and got pepper sprayed. Stay classy, Penn State! While I think Paterno deserved to at least finish out the season and retire, I’m actually happy to see Spanier gone. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/480 "2011-11-10T11:58:48Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > Stay classy, Penn State! > > While I think Paterno deserved to at least finish out the season and retire, I’m actually happy to see Spanier gone. No, Paterno does _not_ deserve any such courtesy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=25)