# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 260
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5183 "2012-10-05T22:44:47Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Okay, looks like I have a little time after all. > > :smack: Is anybody reading for comprehension around here? Is anybody reading my posts at all? > > I’ve answered this numerous times already, including in the post to dipshit that you quoted part of to lead off your question. > > I’m NOT defending Sandusky! > > Or at least that’s not the focus of my intent. If he gets defended as a sidebard element of the main argument then so be it, but defending Jerry Sandusky isn’t the reason for my posting in the thread. > > Everyone in their idiotic hysteria to seemingly blame everyone Jerry Sandusky even looked at in his life for the rapes he alone was responsible for, looked at Mike McQueary’s testimony and immediately leapt to the conclusion that Sandusky was anallyraping the kid. They didn’t stop to think about whether that added up or whether he was really doing something else which he shouldn’t have been and which fit the described scenario a lot more closely, no, they just immediately jumped to the worst thing they could think of because it inflamed their outrage and gave them that much more anger and righteous condemnation to fuel what they were supposing to be the complicity of Joe Paterno and the officials at Penn State. They convinced themselves not only that anal rape was the offense, but that Paterno or Penn State officials themselves knew all about it and either didn’t care or knowingly let it happen in order to protect their football program. > > No a word of this other than what McQueary had testified to had any sort of basis in fact. IT WAS ALL GUESSWORK AND SUPPOSITION…EVERY BIT OF IT! No one could prove then just like they can’t prove now that Paterno or any of the other people involved knew the ugly details of what Sandusky was actually doing with those kids, but they didn’t care. They were absolutely and totally convinced that horrible and painful anal rape was being inflicted on that boy, and they used that particular anal rape and not the other ten years’ worth of offenses, become their touchstone because it could be tied directly to Joe Paterno through Mike McQueary and they were determined like I said that Paterno knew about it and covered it up. > > So yeah, it is about truth. It’s about the truth of what was really happening that night and whether Joe Paterno knew about it and covered it up. And it’s about due process. It’s about due process in that we don’t, or shouldn’t anyway, condemn people for or accuse them of horrible crimes simply because we imagine or suppose they committed them, which is what everyone was doing to Joe Paterno. There was not a shred of evidence at the time to support any of that crap, and there still isn’t today. > > Now on to my alleged defense of Sandusky and the distinction between the shower room non-rape and all his other offenses: The only reason I’ve made such an issue of it is because in this case it is a specious crime that did not in fact occur but which was being insisted upon because the horror and pain of such an act is what everyone was so anxious to crucify Joe Paterno for knowing about and covering up. And then to compound the error they absolutely refused to consider the fact they may be wrong and instead accused me of all manner of perversions for even questioning them about it. So here we have a ton of people all insisting a painful and traumatizing crime had taken place and insisting that Joe Paterno not only knew all about it but intentionally and uncaringly covered up many more identical crimes over the next ten years, and refusing to consider the fact that a.) they had zero proof or even evidence that he did any such thing; and b.) the horrible and painful crime they were so het up about may well not have even happened in the case which could be tied to Paterno and they refused to even consider it. > > Please tell me that as an attorney you find all of that abhorrent. He was found guilty of sexually assaulting victim #2. Only 1 count of the indictment for what happened to victim #2 was not returned with a guilty verdict. You are still hanging your hat on the fact that without the victim identified they did not prove that there was penetration. But they proved there was a heinous sexual assault. Which was reported to Paterno. Which was not acted on. And you are still a fucking idiot. BTW proving sexual assault without a victim is a pretty amazing bit of prosecution. The jury must have found the testimony very compelling. And of course the grand jury found that it was probable that everything to include penetration happened. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5184 "2012-10-05T22:47:07Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Now on to my alleged defense of Sandusky and the distinction between the shower room non-rape and all his other offenses: The only reason I’ve made such an issue of it is because in this case it is a specious crime that did not in fact occur but which was being insisted upon because the horror and pain of such an act is what everyone was so anxious to crucify Joe Paterno for knowing about and covering up. And then to compound the error they absolutely refused to consider the fact they may be wrong and instead accused me of all manner of perversions for even questioning them about it. **So here we have a ton of people all insisting a painful and traumatizing crime had taken place and insisting that Joe Paterno not only knew all about it but intentionally and uncaringly covered up many more identical crimes over the next ten years** , and refusing to consider the fact that a.) they had zero proof or even evidence that he did any such thing; and b.) the horrible and painful crime they were so het up about may well not have even happened in the case which could be tied to Paterno and they refused to even consider it. (bolding mine) A traumatizing crime did take place. Does the exact nature of the felony somehow excuse Paterno (and others) from reporting it to state authorities? And who is claiming that Paterno covered up more crimes over the next ten years? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5185 "2012-10-05T22:47:33Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It is indeed, which is why I’ve never said that. Ok, then I congratulate you on reaching the obvious conclusion that it’s possible that Sandusky was raping that boy in that position. It took a lot of posts, but you finally got there. Way to go! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5186 "2012-10-05T22:49:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ok, then I congratulate you on reaching the obvious conclusion that it’s possible that Sandusky was raping that boy in that position. Nope, didn’t say that either. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5187 "2012-10-05T22:53:42Z")
So was it possible or not? Just trying to cut to the chase, here. It’s a simple question. Nothing I’d expect a person of normal intelligence to find baffling. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5188 "2012-10-05T22:58:55Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Nope, didn’t say that either. Well you agreed that (obviously) it’s possible that a tall person could have sex with a short person in that position. Therefore, it’s possible that Sandusky (tall person) could have been raping that boy (short person) in that position. It’s a small step, but a step you should be proud of nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5189 "2012-10-05T23:00:27Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > He was found guilty of sexually assaulting victim #2. I never said he wasn’t. > [@Loach](#): > > Only 1 count of the indictment for what happened to victim #2 was not returned with a guilty verdict. I’ve been aware of this roughly since the day of the verdict. > [@Loach](#): > > You are still hanging your hat on the fact that without the victim identified they did not prove that there was penetration. No I’m not, which is why I’ve never said that. > [@Loach](#): > > But they proved there was a heinous sexual assault. Which was reported to Paterno. Which was not acted on. It was acted upon by Paterno and in accordance with longstanding campus practice as established in cooperation with and at the request of the local police. > [@Loach](#): > > And you are still a fucking idiot. I guess so. For a while there I beginning to think you could be reasoned with. > [@Loach](#): > > BTW proving sexual assault without a victim is a pretty amazing bit of prosecution. The jury must have found the testimony very compelling. And of course the grand jury found that it was probable that everything to include penetration happened. Hmm…the grand jury found that did they? Why, hell, I guess full-blown trials are just a waste of time then, huh? But wait a minute, why is it we have courtroom trials after grand jury investigations again? You sure you’re a cop? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5190 "2012-10-05T23:03:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Well you agreed that (obviously) it’s possible that a tall person could have sex with a short person in that position. Therefore, it’s possible that Sandusky (tall person) could have been raping that boy (short person) in that position. > > It’s a small step, but a step you should be proud of nonetheless. No, I don’t believe it’s possible for that particular tall person to have been having sex with a short person of the presumed height in that position. Does that do it for ya, sweetie? ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5191 "2012-10-05T23:08:10Z")
> [@NoLittlePlans](#): > > Only got a sec, but these are reasonable questions that I wish I could address more thoroughly when I have more time… Thanks for the, err, comprehensive reply. I do appreciate you directly answering me. As for what you say, frankly, my first impression is – no offense intended – TLDR. That’s a rather imposing wall of text for a couple of simple questions. Still, I do thank you, and I promise I’ll give it a fair reading. As soon as I, as you say, “have more time”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5192 "2012-10-05T23:19:07Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, I don’t believe it’s possible for that particular tall person to have been having sex with a short person of the presumed height in that position. Does that do it for ya, sweetie? Ahh. So you believe that it’s normally possible for a tall person and a short person to have sex in that position, but in this particular case (and for no reason that I can figure out) it’s not possible. Enlighten me- why is it not possible in this particular case? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5193 "2012-10-05T23:36:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ahh. So you believe that it’s normally possible for a tall person and a short person to have sex in that position, but in this particular case (and for no reason that I can figure out) it’s not possible. Enlighten me- why is it not possible in this particular case? I am confident, nay _very_ confident, Starving Artist can enlighten us, after he spends ten or twelve posts telling what factors do _not_ apply, and which he never said applied, and how could we dishonestly say he said they applied? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5194 "2012-10-05T23:59:38Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Oh, I’ll respond all right, and it will to tell you to shove it unless you can come up with some proof to support your assertions, which btw no one has in the last eleven months…a factor which I suspect plays into the frustration and anger that you’re displaying now. If you could prove what you’re only making up about Paterno, you’d do so and I’d be utterly defeated. Why don’t you want to defeat me, **Red**? Are you genetically impaired to even begin to comprehend the amount of _real life damage_ that was done at Penn State right under your senile fuck’s iron-fisted watch? **Don’t bother responding**. You already have thousands of times, you sick SOB. Get help. Or get bent. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5195 "2012-10-06T02:22:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ahh. So you believe that it’s normally possible for a tall person and a short person to have sex in that position, but in this particular case (and for no reason that I can figure out) it’s not possible. Enlighten me- why is it not possible in this particular case? I must give you credit **iiandyiiii** , I’ve had SA cornered before but I don’t think ever quite as cornered as this. Well played. If he does respond, usually this is where the posts are the most entertaining, although sometimes he just stops responding to that line of reasoning and hopes it will go away. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5196 "2012-10-06T02:34:47Z")
You know, I was just sitting here thinking, if someone told me that SA has a mental problem, I don’t think I would enjoy this thread as much. I think a good part of my enjoyment is watching a person that appears to be coherent dodging, dipping, diving, ducking and dodging to avoid being wrong. ---
**Author:** ![NoLittlePlans](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NoLittlePlans](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoLittlePlans)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5197 "2012-10-06T02:47:00Z")
Anyone trying to diminish of distinction between anal rape and a bear hug on the grounds that they’re both acts of child sex abuse and therefore equally deplorable isn’t being honest with themselves, IMO. That’s like saying al qaeda flying airplanes into the twin towers is no more significant than the one that crashed in rural PA because they’re both terroristic attacks and therefore equally deplorable. FWIW, McQ testified that he never reported anal rape or other graphic details to JVP. Joe still reported it through the proper procedural channels and of course never suggested that he keep the story to himself. Of course, I think we’d all like further clarification about his understanding of “a sexual nature,” but the Pennsylvania Attorney General went out of her way to praise Paterno for following proper reporting procedures exactly as described in the book of policies. She commended him for offering to participate as a key witness for the prosecution. And then she publically expressed concern about the rush to judgment that led to his immediate firing, especially given how resourceful he’d been in assisting the prosecution in building their case against Sandusky. Finally, someone said something about JVP lying about his awareness of the 1998 investigation (which, incidentally, resulted in no findings of wrongdoing by 3-5 independent agencies). These allegations of JVP lying abt his awareness of 1998 originated from unsupported claims outlined in the 2-page exucutive summary of the Freeh report. A deeper look into that 267-page report reveals a complete lack of verified evidence connecting JVP to 1998 other than irresponsible leaps in logic and random stabs at unsubstantiated assumptions and wild specilation. The Freeh report is garbage and the 2-page executive summary is a disgrace of unfounded allegations. ---
**Author:** ![NoLittlePlans](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NoLittlePlans](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoLittlePlans)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5198 "2012-10-06T02:50:04Z")
FWIW, here’s the explanation that makes the most sense to me, almost word-for-word, courtesy of kcglassonion: One thing I got from this is how credible Dr. Dranov’s testimony seems. Think about it…MM had 1-2 seconds to view an older man chest to the boy’s back. That measn all MM would have seen is a white haired man’s back via an agled mirror. How in the world would he know that it was Jerry Sandusky? Dr. Dranov’s story offers a more credible story because it suggests that Jerry S stepped out of the shower, which would allow MM to know who the individual was with the boy. Again…1-2 seconds via a mirror only visibility is an older man’s back. Jerry S was no longer an employee, so it’s not as if MM encounters him all the time. White haired man (only 20,000 of those individuals roaming around PSU at any time of the day). How does he know it’s Jerry? It’s because Dr. Dranov’s story explains how MM knew it was Sandusky… So MM heard clapping sounds 3 times and a boy who does not appear to be hurt. An arm reaches out and grabs the boy back in. Jerry S proceeds to come out of the shower. Whether they encounter each other at the same time ackwardly is anybody’s guess. However, it would make sense that MM first reaction to Mikes father and Dranov about what he saw be the most accurate… That is why Mike was okay for 10 years after the incident in not making a peep to the police or talking about it any futher. Even though I am sure MM at one point probably assumed some sexual was taking place in the shower, he probably considered that a more extreme possibility considering Sandusky’s reputation and rumors of him taking showers with boys. Then MM gets the news he probably never wanted to hear which was a possibilit of potential victims that were abused by Sandusky. Now the picture is painted a little more clearer. If Sandusky had sex with all those other boys, then it’s very possible that he had sex with the boy in the shower. AG and investigators know that MM’s story if could be considered credible can press charges on Sandusky. Whether the AG coerced MM into making a different account of what he saw or if MM created this new story without telling the AG what really happened is up for debate. The AG knew that without a damning 1st person encounter of Sandusky abusing a child, they would have no case… 3 or victims story vs Sandusky’s reputation… Icing on the cake…now charge Schultz and Curley for perjury charges. This will show even more credibility to MM’s story. How could the AG not charge Schultz and Curley for perjury if there stories completely contradict MM"s story to the AG. There you have it…Why Spanier and Dr. Dranov were never charged with perjury is beyond me. How Mike’s father could forget his testimony to the Grand Jury is even more baffling. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5199 "2012-10-06T03:54:49Z")
“D” ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5200 "2012-10-06T03:59:17Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Are you genetically impaired to even begin to comprehend the amount of _real life damage_ that was done at Penn State right under your senile fuck’s iron-fisted watch? Unless you have proof Joe Paterno knew of and covered up said real life damage, this question is meaningless. > [@RedFury](#): > > **Don’t bother responding**. Irrelevant. > [@RedFury](#): > > You already have thousands of times, Irrelevant. > [@RedFury](#): > > you sick SOB. Incorrect. > [@RedFury](#): > > Get help. Unnecessary. > [@RedFury](#): > > Or get bent. Unneeded. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5201 "2012-10-06T04:00:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ahh. So you believe that it’s normally possible for a tall person and a short person to have sex in that position, but in this particular case (and for no reason that I can figure out) it’s not possible. Enlighten me- why is it not possible in this particular case? Answered innumerable times. Do your research. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5202 "2012-10-06T04:06:30Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > You know, I was just sitting here thinking, if someone told me that SA has a mental problem, I don’t think I would enjoy this thread as much. > > I think a good part of my enjoyment is watching a person that appears to be coherent dodging, dipping, diving, ducking and dodging to avoid being wrong. Dodging, dipping, diving, ducking and dodging [again] is what _I’ve_ been having to contend with. And it never changes anything. No matter how anyone dodges, dips, dives, ducks or redodges, the fact remains that I’ve been right all along and you dillweeds…haven’t. Nightall! 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=259) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=261)