# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 267
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5323 "2012-10-09T18:10:49Z")
Perhaps this would be a good time to acquaint (or reacquaint as the case may be) the Gentle Reader with the testimony of Dr. Jonathan Dranov, a family friend of the McQueary’s, who has a different account of what McQueary told him he saw in the shower room that night: > [@](#): > > The (Harrisburg) Patriot-News reports that McQueary told Dr. Jonathan Dranov, a family friend and a colleague of his father’s, that he heard “sex sounds” and a running shower before a young boy peered around the corner of a shower stall. An adult’s arm then reached around the boy’s waist and pulled him out of view. Sandusky walked out of the shower moments later. > > A source with knowledge of Dranov’s testimony before the grand jury relayed his account to the Patriot-News. Dranov testified that he spoke to McQueary shortly after McQueary witnessed the alleged incident, and advised McQueary that because he hadn’t personally witnessed an assault, he should report the incident to his superiors at Penn State but not the police. > > The version differs with those from McQueary’s statement to police and the summary of his testimony in the grand jury presentment. In both of those accounts, McQueary said he witnessed Sandusky sodomizing a boy of about 10 years old in the shower. [Cite](http://espn.go.com/blog/bigten/post/_/id/41159/family-friend-contradicts-mcquearys-story) It would be interesting to know whether Dr. Dranov’s version is the truth. If so it appears that McQueary, perhaps upon getting less of a rise out of Dranov than he expected and anxious to have his suspicions validated, embellished what he saw by a considerable degree in subsequent tellings to Joe Paterno and even more when testifying to the Grand Jury. On the one hand, Dranov is an old family friend and colleague of McQueary’s father and presumably would have some motive to downplay events to favor Penn State and perhaps Paterno, and on the other hand, based upon the photographs of the locker room and shower entrance that **NoLittlePlans** was kind enough to post, it seems unlikely that McQueary actually saw what he says he saw. It may eventually turn out that this whole thread was based on nothing but lies and that McQueary never saw Sandusky and the boy in any kind of position at all! And wouldn’t that be fun? Sure would be for me! 🙂 I wonder if lie detector tests for the two of them might be a possibility? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5324 "2012-10-09T18:12:57Z")
And now I’m out. I got chit to do today. Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5325 "2012-10-09T18:16:39Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And now I’m out. I got chit to do today. Cheers. Is “chit” short for “children”? You can tell me. You’re in a safe place. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5326 "2012-10-09T18:23:00Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It may eventually turn out that this whole thread was based on nothing but lies and that McQueary never saw Sandusky and the boy in any kind of position at all! > > And wouldn’t that be fun? > > Sure would be for me! 🙂 The bar for “fun” at the \*\*Artist \*\* household is evidently so low that I hope you don’t break a hip reaching for it. Just kidding. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5327 "2012-10-09T18:52:40Z")
> [@NoLittlePlans](#): > > Just surprised we’re not seeing more outrage directed at the university that… So open a fuckin’ thread about it & outrage away. Though it’d likely end-up here anyway. * * * **SA** , how many times have **you** hugged naked kids in the shower? Because as ‘normal’ as you appear to think said behavior is, it has never occurred to me to engage in it nor anyone else I know. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5328 "2012-10-09T19:14:25Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > **SA** , how many times have **you** hugged naked kids in the shower? Because as ‘normal’ as you appear to think said behavior is, it has never occurred to me to engage in it nor anyone else I know. Same here. I’ve hugged significant others in the shower a few times and it’s always led to devilment. (Height hasn’t been an issue) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Dord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3be4f8/32.png) [@The\_Dord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Dord)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5329 "2012-10-09T20:08:50Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > You should really stop saying stupid shit like that if you don’t want people to think you’re a pedophile, you know. Heh it isn’t worth to talk to the **S** ub-hum **A** n being anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5330 "2012-10-09T20:17:11Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, at least he’s not defending Paterno and Sandusky anymore… he’s defending conservatism. I guess that’s progress, of a sort. He is singlehandedly turning me into a liberal. Hope your happy SA. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5331 "2012-10-09T20:32:29Z")
Add me to the list of hetro males that has never hugged another guy in the shower. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5332 "2012-10-09T20:34:16Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Trouble is, nothing like that happened at Penn State. Or at least we have no evidence of it. Here’s the chronology of what the evidence shows so far: > > 1. Sandusky was investigated two years prior to the McQueary incident for hugging a kid in the shower. That child’s mother complained and the incident was investigated by the police who found no criminal wrongdoing and the complaint was dropped. No, apparently the prosecutor apparently didn’t find actionable cause. A police investigator says the allegation was true, and he was surprised at the prosecutor’s inaction. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > 1. McQueary saw Sandusky in the shower with a child in what appeared to be a compromising position. He assumed what he saw was anal rape. He gave various accounts of what he saw to his father, his friend Dr. Dranov, Grand Jury, and the Sandusky trial jury, and to Joe Paterno. To Joe Paterno he said that he witnessed some sort of fondling or form of sexual intercourse. McQueary specifically testified that he made no mention of anal rape or of having seen penile penetration. Paterno said that McQueary told him about witnessing _sexual acts_. Sexual acts _on a child_. Paterno said that was his understanding of McQ’s report to him, Paterno. You say it yourself – “some… …form of sexual intercourse”. Are you too stupid to read your own words? > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > 1. Joe Paterno made no effort whatsoever to cover up anything Mike McQueary tol him. He reported exactly what he was told and he reported it to the proper authorities in exactly the proper longstanding protocol established at the behest of the local police themselves. > > 2. As far as Joe Paterno or any Penn State officials may have known, this could simply have been another misinterpretation of a hug in the shower as was deemed to be the case two years earlier. No, Paterno knew that McQ claimed to have witnessed sexual acts on a child. All your circular reasoning cannot remove this simple fact. Paterno doesn’t claim he didn’t believe it. He never said that McQ was an unreliable witness. But instead of reporting it to the police, and following up to see if anything developed that might impact Penn State through its relationship with Second Mile, he argued that Sandusky should be confronted and told not to do it again. And we don’t know if even that futile effort actually took place. What we do know is that, whatever these conspirators did, it wasn’t enough. Sandusky’s multiple convictions are ample evidence of that. This makes Paterno a selfish, craven man, more desirous of a cover-up than concerned about a child’s welfare. And it makes you something even less noble, for your ridiculous apologia on behalf of a disgusting person who has no rightful claim to be anyone’s hero. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5333 "2012-10-09T20:44:55Z")
I’ve gazed through bits and pieces of this thread, and I may as well come out to say that I, too, find **Starving Artist** ’s behavior absurd bordering on surreal. At some point, I assume someone’s done the math on the possibility of Sandusky squatting for (um) proper alignment? But for kicks, let’s assume a foot-to-knee length for Sandusky of 18in and a knee-to-top-of-leg length of 18in; this’d be roughly in line with Sandusky’s height (75in). For him to achieve a pelvic drop of roughly one foot, he’d only have to bend his legs at an angle of asin(6 / 18) ~= 20 degrees. That seems fairly doable, and in fact I can manage a one-foot drop (as measured from nose to floor) for several minutes with no trouble — despite being six inches shorter than Sandusky, in rather poor health, and afflicted with chronic leg/foot conditions. I’ve also never given anyone a hug in the shower. I’ll admit to being prudish, but, uh, I have trouble believing anyone could find innocuous the practice of naked alone time shower hugs between children and adult authority figures. If McQueary had come to me I’d’ve been much likelier to think “where there’s smoke there’s fire” than “well, naked shower hugging was perfectly innocent _last_ time.” But I suppose I’m just an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5334 "2012-10-09T20:46:52Z")
Heck, if Paterno believed McQueary was making it up, and Paterno was such a stand-up guy, why didn’t he fire McQueary? Making a false accusation of this kind is pretty serious stuff. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5335 "2012-10-09T21:18:55Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > …I’ve also never given anyone a hug in the shower. **I’ll admit to being prudish** , but, uh, I have trouble believing anyone could find innocuous the practice of naked alone time shower hugs between children and adult authority figures. If McQueary had come to me I’d’ve been much likelier to think “where there’s smoke there’s fire” than “well, naked shower hugging was perfectly innocent _last_ time.” – bolding mine. And I can openly say I am the opposite of that, yet I find the mere thought of what you describe in that post, repulsive. > [@](#): > > But I suppose I’m just an idiot. Makes two of us. Actually, if we took a poll I’d bet we’d be a lot more. But that’s not gonna happen. Ever. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5336 "2012-10-09T22:08:25Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > in fact I can manage a one-foot drop (as measured from nose to floor) for several minutes with no trouble — despite being six inches shorter than Sandusky, in rather poor health, and afflicted with chronic leg/foot conditions. Okay, just taking a short break and ducking back in for a few quick comments: a.) If you’ve only looked at bits and pieces of this thread it’s highly unlikely you have a very good grasp of my position on anything. There have been two or three posters in this thread who managed to keep their heads on straight and with the possible exception of **NoLittlePlans** , who hasn’t commented on specifics, even they’ve had trouble keeping straight what I’ve actually said vs. what my opponents’ feedback distorts it into. b.) I believe your shorter stature would be an advantage in squatting down to two feet off the ground. c.) Even though you may be able to lower yourself to that height I doubt very seriously you could carry out copulatory movements for several minutes in that position. If you can fit yourself inside a paper towel tube, I suggest it might make a suitable vehicle for experimentation. Note also that your position while doing so will not be that which a reasonable person would likely describe as “standing,” which is how Mike McQueary described Sandusky’s position when he allegedly saw him in contact with the boy in the shower. d.) I’m not surprised my opponents are once again trying to deflect attention toward me since they have zero evidence that Joe Paterno or Penn State as an entity engaged in any sort of cover up for Jerry Sandusky’s rape of children on or about the Penn State campus. That’s all for now, kids. I have work to do. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5337 "2012-10-09T22:26:35Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > a.) If you’ve only looked at bits and pieces of this thread it’s highly unlikely you have a very good grasp of my position on anything. There have been two or three posters in this thread who managed to keep their heads on straight and with the possible exception of **NoLittlePlans** , who hasn’t commented on specifics, even they’ve had trouble keeping straight what I’ve actually said vs. what my opponents’ feedback distorts it into. Dude, you have more posts in this thread than any two other posters combined. If anyone’s thoughts are represented here among the bits and pieces, they’re yours. > [@](#): > > c.) Even though you may be able to lower yourself to that height I doubt very seriously you could carry out copulatory movements for several minutes in that position. If you can fit yourself inside a paper towel tube, I suggest it might make a suitable vehicle for experimentation. Note also that your position while doing so will not be that which a reasonable person would likely describe as “standing,” which is how Mike McQueary described Sandusky’s position when he allegedly saw him in contact with the boy in the shower. Did McQueary describe seeing Sandusky’s and the victim’s clothes anywhere in the locker room? If not, clearly they came to campus naked. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5338 "2012-10-09T22:41:08Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Note also that your position while doing so will not be that which a reasonable person would likely describe as “standing,” which is how Mike McQueary described Sandusky’s position when he allegedly saw him in contact with the boy in the shower. A 20 degree knee band is still standing. It’s not a [crouch](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/crouch), and it’s not a [squat](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/squat)- it must be standing. You can’t honestly think that a 20 degree knee bend means one isn’t standing any more. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5339 "2012-10-09T23:13:53Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > d.) I’m not surprised my opponents are once again trying to deflect attention toward me since they have zero evidence that Joe Paterno or Penn State as an entity engaged in any sort of cover up for Jerry Sandusky’s rape of children on or about the Penn State campus. How about Jerry Sandusky’s sexual assault and molestation of children? A simple question I’m sure you’ll ignore. ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5340 "2012-10-09T23:35:23Z")
I’m six foot three and I have never had any trouble fucking a midget in the ass while standing. When the mood hits you, you make it happen. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5341 "2012-10-10T00:07:46Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Okay, just taking a short break and ducking back in for a few quick comments: > > [snip] > > That’s all for now, kids. I have work to do. You know, you really don’t have to announce your every exit and departure as though we were a troop of terrified Cub Scouts chained up in your crawlspace wondering when the bad old man in the Penn State jersey will let us see mommy and daddy again. Show, don’t tell. Less is more. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5342 "2012-10-10T00:23:46Z")
(heh, original comment was posted in wrong thread) Well, if Starving didn’t announce his comings and goings, he’d be sacrificing valuable flouncing time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=266) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=268)