# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/521 "2011-11-10T14:56:35Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I think you’ll agree that moral culpability is pretty meaningless in an atmosphere where a witness is afraid to speak up for fear of unforeseen backlash against him. > > And now I’m out. I’ll admit, this was originally my thought. I could see how McQueary might be scared of losing his job, or of reprisals from Sandusky. However, there is not one _shred_ of evidence that he was afraid of losing his job, or of Sandusky. All the evidence tells us is that he was too fucking stupid to attempt to stop a child rape that was in progress, or to tell the appropriate people about it afterwards. Seriously, on what planet is the head coach the right person to tell about a rape? If you were at work in an office and saw one co-worker raping another, would you call human resources or their supervisor? Or would you maybe, just maybe, _call the fucking police_? > [@](#): > > **ladyfoxfire** (and you have no idea how ludicrous it is to think of you as either a fox or a lady), I’ve already explained why it’s wrong to fire Paterno for not reporting it to the police. Channeling Allen West again, are we? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/522 "2011-11-10T15:02:15Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’ll admit, this was originally my thought. I could see how McQueary might be scared of losing his job, or of reprisals from Sandusky. > > However, there is not one _shred_ of evidence that he was afraid of losing his job, or of Sandusky. All the evidence tells us is that he was too fucking stupid to attempt to stop a child rape that was in progress, or to tell the appropriate people about it afterwards. > > Seriously, on what planet is the head coach the right person to tell about a rape? If you were at work in an office and saw one co-worker raping another, would you call human resources or their supervisor? Or would you maybe, just maybe, _call the fucking police_? I don’t think the police could offer him a promotion though. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/523 "2011-11-10T15:03:31Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Not germane to what I said, which was to contrast the way the situation should have been handled vs. the way it was. The students’ behavior has nothing to do with that. On the other hand if it’s your position that people simply get outraged over injustice and therefore your side is just as entitled to behave irresponsibly as the students are, I would only point out that the students aren’t destroying lives and creating an atmosphere where a witness with knowledge of a serious crime is more likely to respond by saying to himself “Fuck that shit, I ain’t about to get involved!” Your labored attempts at making this a cautionary tale about whistle blowing are ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/524 "2011-11-10T15:05:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Seriously, on what planet is the head coach the right person to tell about a rape? If you were at work in an office and saw one co-worker raping another, would you call human resources or their supervisor? Or would you maybe, just maybe, _call the fucking police_? This was one of my first thoughts. How fucking brainwashed/braindead do you have to be to think you owe it to your boss to report child rape to him instead of calling the cops yourself or, if you are of the large college QB build, getting the kid the fuck out of there and then calling the cops? I don’t know how he can live with that picture burned into his brain for the rest of his life knowing he walked away. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/525 "2011-11-10T15:09:15Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > You said you were out!.. He meant of ideas, and he meant he ran out of them in 1963. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/526 "2011-11-10T15:24:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Seriously, on what planet is the head coach the right person to tell about a rape? If you were at work in an office and saw one co-worker raping another, would you call human resources or their supervisor? Or would you maybe, just maybe, _call the fucking police_? And yet, for some reason the law as written specifies reporting to one’s supervisor as one of the proper courses of action. Even more so in this case, as JP did not himself witness anything and could only relay what he had been told by someone else. I appreciate that there is a contrary view in this matter, and there are intelligent people who disagree with me. But for the most part, those calling for heads are nothing more than a frenzied lynch mob. In other times and places it would be obvious to these people that we need to burn the heretics, hang the witches, lynch the nigger, blacklist the commie-lover etc. etc. And it would be obvious to all these people that this is clearly the only proper course of action and it’s amazing that anyone could disagree about how forcefully we need to deal with these dangerous threats. And look how everyone agrees with us - it’s only a few fools or evil people who disagree. As previous, IMO JP did nothing wrong (unless he knew more detail than what’s been made public so far). What’s immoral was for the university to fire a guy to whom they owed so much and for so long over some passing outrage. But them’s the breaks for people in public life. Public opinion is fickle. I once saw a good line from a British politician whose career was brought down by some scandal. He said “it was a tempest in a teapot, but in politics we ride paper boats”. Doesn’t make it right, but that’s how it goes. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/527 "2011-11-10T15:25:52Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, that’s not the reason. Luckily I am not banking my integrity on your ability to judge people. Apparently I’d have to win a few more football games, be fearful of public accusations of protecting a child rapist, and perform the bare minimum legally required when reporting said child rapist to my superiors for you to really have respect for me. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/528 "2011-11-10T15:26:19Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Guess if you’re [into plagiarism](http://espn.go.com/ncf/conversations/_/id/7212054/key-dates-penn-state-nittany-lions-sex-abuse-case), it might be. > > Read the rest of the page – it’s been refuted to hell and back at the original source. So fuck the “excellence” you ignorant baboon. To the extent that a sad, sad thread like this is winnable, you have done so. I really wish this were any kind of overreaction by the Trustees. It is not. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/529 "2011-11-10T15:27:05Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I once saw a good line from a British politician whose career was brought down by some scandal. He said “it was a tempest in a teapot, but in politics we ride paper boats”. Doesn’t make it right, but that’s how it goes. Yes, the repeated butt-fucking of 10-year-old children is just a bit of passing piffle, tempest in a teapot, nothing to really be upset about. Certainly not as important as PENN STATE FOOTBALL. Certainly nobody would have the moral responsibility to stop this from happening when they see a known predator parading his prey around campus openly. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/530 "2011-11-10T15:31:29Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > Don’t forget ugly. Well, shit. Nobody told me it was THIS kinda pitting. And here I am wearing my combat fatiques and fuck you boots. Let me go change into my short short skirt and red fuck me pumps. Least some little shit rioters got maced so a tiny bit of justice is leaking out. Bet those little shits get IDed from the videos too. Hope some parents receive some large bills in the near future and some students see the inside of the big house. ---
**Author:** ![mkecane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9e8a1a/32.png) [@mkecane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkecane)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/531 "2011-11-10T15:35:11Z")
If this is correct, then holy motherfucking shit… > [@](#): > > Sportswriter Mark Madden went on WEEI in Boston and reported a rumor that alleged child molester Jerry Sandusky would pimp out boys to rich donors. > **[SHOCKING PENN STATE RUMOR: Jerry Sandusky 'Pimped Out Young Boys To Rich Donors'](https://www.businessinsider.com/jerry-sandusky-donors-2011-11)** > > Jerry Sandusky's donor relationships come under scrutiny as the scandal continues to unfold. > [@](#): > > Again, label this under “RUMOR.” But Madden has been out in front of this story before, so stay tuned. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/532 "2011-11-10T15:40:14Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > You already answered your question. Because they are morally repugnant. No I didn’t. My question to you is WHY they would all engage in a cover up if they all KNEW he was guilty, and was continuing to assault kids? > [@Gyrate](#): > > That’s a bit casually harsh. They would cover it up and act as if nothing happened for the same reason that these types of coverups always occur - because they’d rather deny everything now and hope that any long-term fallout occurs after they’re gone than act responsibly now and risk being tarnished with scandal anyway. > > If they’d turned Sandusky over to the police, Penn State would have been linked to a child molester even if it had done everything right. So they covered it up. The fact that this not only allowed the abuse to continue but amplified the fallout is why doing the right thing is best regardless, and why doing the wrong thing is morally repugnant. But this doesn’t make a whole lot a sense. While possible, it fails on a number of levels to actually succeed in the goals you put forth. Perhaps if they all thought it was an isolated incident, but they continued to let the guy you assume they KNEW to be a brazen pedophile to continue to work with kids on their campus. If people plan to sweep something under the rug, they usually try to actual SWEEP it under the rug. They don’t just pretend like it never happened while allowing it to continue to happen since there is NO plausible deniability after they were told about it. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > He was a 28 year old graduate assistant who’d previously been Penn State’s star quarterback. This was not some guy who Paterno barely knew. Paterno already knew what he thought of this guy. Paterno invited him in when he came over on a Saturday morning. But the relationship between him and the GA, and that of his former right hand man is not really comparable. I suppose you could say I overstated the dearth of contact between the two, but the point still stands. > [@Mince](#): > > You know, truly I don’t, because who can divine Joe Paterno’s thoughts, really? But the [investigation and admonishment](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/10/sports/ncaafootball/aftermath-of-1998-sandusky-investigation-raises-additional-questions.html) are a matter of public record. So, let’s apply a little common sense here. Do you think that the iconic coach of one of the most storied football teams in college football history wasn’t aware of the disposition of his defensive coordinator regarding a child sexual abuse investigation given the media shitstorm that followed? And if he didn’t, do you really want such a daft, ignorant individual in charge of your football program? Common sense would lead one to believe he DIDN’T know seeing as there is little benefit, and lots of downside, to him ignoring it. The foreseeable “media shitstorm”, and the brazen, high-profile nature of the attacker is a large reason WHY someone like Paterno would not try to engage in a cover-up. Per your own link, one officer involved in the 1998 allegation stated the following: > [@](#): > > At the time of his investigation, Lauro said, all the child said was that Sandusky showered with him, and it made him uncomfortable. Lauro said he didn’t feel that was enough to substantiate a sexual-abuse complaint. > > Lauro suggested that the child, now grown, had told the grand jury convened by the attorney general a much more explicit account. > > Lauro said he has felt worse and worse as the scandal has unfolded, particularly when he read quotations in a newspaper from a victim’s mother blaming him and other officials for not doing more to stop Sandusky. > > “I feel bad that there was not more information so I could have done something,” he said. “I feel bad that the mom thinks I should’ve done more. I just didn’t have all the information back then.” > > In 1998, though, Lauro said his judgment was that the allegation fell under the category of what he termed “boundary issues,” not sexual assault. > > “It was definitely boundary issues, and I worked with boundary issues a lot,” Lauro said. “But if I believed it was more than boundary issues, I would’ve gone to the mat.” Why would the guy lie? Why would he knowingly allow a monster to remain free? I think what everyone seems to be getting worked up over is a pretty common blindness most have coupled with a lack of all the relevant information. If we are just lynching people for placing seemingly well deserved trust in the wrong people, I am not sure we should feel comfortable associating with others at all. As I said before, at WORST, Paterno is guilty of doing what 47% of people do. The question should be less about Paterno, and more about why people make such costly mistakes. If you attend to that issue, you will do far more good than tearing down a generally well-respected institution, and forcing a generally well-respected football coach to not coach his last game. As if that really matters in the grand scheme of things. People should really get some perspective. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/533 "2011-11-10T15:40:44Z")
> [@mkecane](#): > > If this is correct, then holy motherfucking shit… > > [Report: Jerry Sandusky Pimped Out Kids to Rich Donors - Business Insider](http://www.businessinsider.com/jerry-sandusky-donors-2011-11) If I were going to make a bet, I would say this is totally bogus. We had a similiar case in Nebraska a few years ago, and it was a complete hoax tacked on to a credit union failure. That said, I would never have dreamed that ANYTHING that has come out of State College this week would have ever happened, so anything is possible. Not bloody likely, but possible. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/534 "2011-11-10T15:43:52Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Yes, the repeated butt-fucking of 10-year-old children is just a bit of passing piffle, tempest in a teapot, nothing to really be upset about. Certainly not as important as PENN STATE FOOTBALL. **Certainly nobody would have the moral responsibility to stop this from happening when they see a known predator parading his prey around campus openly**. If anyone had the power and influence to get this to stop, at least on the PSU campus, it was _Joe Paterno_. If anyone had the power and influence to make sure it was investigated by the State College police, _it was Joe Paterno_. He, more than anyone, could have made sure something was done. _More than anyone._ ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/535 "2011-11-10T15:46:48Z")
I am prepared to cut Joe Pa a little slack for one reason: there was absolutely no reason he should have been involved in the first place. McQueary should have gone straight to the police. Still, once Joe Pa was involved, he made a complete pig’s breakfast of things. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > And yet, for some reason the law as written specifies reporting to one’s supervisor as one of the proper courses of action. > > \ > > As previous, IMO JP did nothing wrong (unless he knew more detail than what’s been made public so far). What’s immoral was for the university to fire a guy to whom they owed so much and for so long over some passing outrage. There is no question that Paterno’s actions in reporting the rape to his supervisor were compliant with the requirements of the law. There is also no question that tweeting “God, I hate them niggers and kooks” is not illegal. Does that mean a coach- even a long-serving, beloved one- shouldn’t be fired if that shows up on his Twitter page? He’s not being fired because he broke the law. He’s being fired because he did something stupid. Let me ask you what I asked **Starving** : if you witnessed the rape of a child at work, or were told that one of your employees was raping a child the previous day, would you report the matter to your supervisor\* and forget about it? \*I’m being generous here by categorizing the athletic director as Paterno’s supervisor for the purpose of this analogy. It should be clear by now that Paterno answered to the trustees and no-one else. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/536 "2011-11-10T15:48:14Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Least some little shit rioters got maced so a tiny bit of justice is leaking out. Bet those little shits get IDed from the videos too. Hope some parents receive some large bills in the near future and some students see the inside of the big house. College students can be such dumbasses. Most of us manage to vent our dumbassery without committing felonies though. I’m reminded of [this guy](http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/jan/11/student-fire-extinguisher-protests-jailed) from the UK student protests last year - there need to be consequences. If they aren’t, it’ll happen again, and worse. > [@brickbacon](#): > > They don’t just pretend like it never happened while allowing it to continue to happen since there is NO plausible deniability after they were told about it. And yet they did. Demonstrably. It’s not rational but people aren’t, especially in the face of this sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/537 "2011-11-10T15:53:13Z")
Don’t have the time to read through everything but --------- An asteroid passes between the Earth and moon and JoePa gets fired. Coincidence? Now PSU can finally admit to their branch campus in DuBois (pronounced by the locals as “Do Boys”) Is this the first step in Notre Dame or another Catholic college picking up his contract? ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/538 "2011-11-10T15:53:38Z")
My Penn State friends of FB scare me. It’s like they’re all brainwashed. Joe Paterno can do no wrong, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/539 "2011-11-10T15:56:58Z")
BTW, my response to the riot at Penn State was…is it Tuesday? I witnessed far bigger riots during my time there. IIRC the biggest one was because allegedly some woman was standing at a window topless, then refused to flash the crowd again as it got larger. Yes I know that previous sentence makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, but neither do most actions involving college students and alcohol. ---
**Author:** ![aerodave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f08c70/32.png) [@aerodave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aerodave)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/540 "2011-11-10T15:57:31Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > Your last sentence is telling. It strikes me that many if not most of the people offended wouldn’t have done anything different that Paterno and the graduate assistant did. Most people don’t have the courage to do that, and I included myself in that group. We flatter ourselves that we do have the right stuff, but too often we don’t have it, really. I know this post was made an eternity ago, but I think it reflects a point that had been ignored by a lot of people in this discussion—both on this board and elsewhere. There is a lot of armchair quarterbacking of morality going on. It’s easy to talk a big game when it comes to what you would do in a given situation. But the fact is that real people in real situations are notorious for making fantastically bad decisions. The right answer may be clear to an impartial observer, or even clear to the person in question a long time after the fact. But when confronted by a situation like what McQueary walked into, the number of people who would actually do the right thing is far less than the number of people who _think_ they would do the right thing. That’s because at that particular moment, mitigating circumstances or sheer shock can make people rationalize action (or inaction) that is at complete odds with their idealized standard for behavior. We all like to think we won’t stand idly by when someone is getting victimized…that we’ll stop the rape or tackle the purse snatcher. But if we all believe that, why does the opposite happen so often? The fact that it’s just human nature doesn’t excuse it. And it doesn’t mean that people shouldn’t be made to suffer the consqeuences for their inaction. But it does explain how it can happen, why it may have happened in the PSU case, and why it happens elsewhere so regrettably often. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=28)