# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 277
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5523 "2012-10-12T18:50:46Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > No, it’s Paterno’s fault because he convinced Curley not to go to the authorities… Supposition and guesswork which you couldn’t prove to save your own life. See my post just above. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5524 "2012-10-12T19:05:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I have a problem with naked men hugging naked kids in the shower. JoePa should have had a problem with naked men hugging naked kids in the shower. > > Do you have a problem with this, or are naked men hugging (unrelated) naked kids in the shower A-OK with you? Tell it to the authorities who investigated the original hug and found no prosecutable wrongdoing. As for me, in a more innocent time - i.e., the era JoePa grew up in - I could see instances of it happening in ways that were devoid of sexual intent. I described some of these in the first stage of the thread and won’t go over it all again now because you people aren’t interested in any kind of substantive discussion. Nowadays, however, with virtually every form of sexual expression and deviancy (i.e., girls/cup) being given free rein and every Walmart checkstand contains Cosmo covers bleating out ways to give the best blow jobs, I think naked hugs in a shower between adults and children could understandably be considered suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5525 "2012-10-12T19:11:35Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Either way it doesn’t matter because he reported it in detail the very next morning in accordance with longstanding campus protocol established decades before at the request of the local police in order to prevent their being flooded with multiple reports of the same crime. Asking for the third time, where are you getting the information that this method of reporting was requested by the local police? And who investigated the 1998 report; how can it be “longstanding campus protocol” to report to campus police if the only relevant preceding event we know of was reported to someone else? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5526 "2012-10-12T19:15:45Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Supposition and guesswork which you couldn’t prove to save your own life. See my post just above. My summary came from the Freeh Report, which is freely available to download and read. Curley emailed Schultz and Spanier and said he had changed his mind about reporting Sandusky to the authorities “after giving it more thought and talking it over with Joe yesterday.” It’s called circumstantial evidence. If you want to dispute the Freeh Report, knock yourself out. Furthermore, McQueary testified to the grand jury and at Sandusky’s trial that he told Paterno that he saw Sandusky with a boy engaged in activity that was “extremely sexual in nature,” and Paterno testified to the grand jury that his recollection was that McQueary told him he saw Sandusky “fondling…a young boy,” and that “he was doing something with the youngster. It was a sexual nature.” So don’t give me this crap that Paterno didn’t know. He knew. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5527 "2012-10-12T19:30:52Z")
The Freeh report said Paterno and the other university officials hushed up child sexual abuse allegations against Sandusky in 2001 for fear of bad publicity. **Freeh described Paterno as “an integral part” of the agreement to not report the incident to the proper authorities. According to his report, Spanier, Schultz and Curley drew up a plan that called for reporting Sandusky to the state Department of Public Welfare in 2001. But Curley later said in an email that he changed his mind "after giving it more thought and talking it over with Joe."** The report also called into question the truthfulness of Paterno’s grand jury testimony last year, when he was asked whether he knew of any abuse allegations against Sandusky before the 2001 episode in which Sandusky was spotted assaulting a boy in the locker room showers. “I do not know of anything else that Jerry would be involved in of that nature, no,” Paterno testified in a grand jury appearance that lasted only a few minutes. He added that a rumor “may have been discussed in my presence, something else about somebody. I don’t know. I don’t remember, and I could not honestly say I heard a rumor.” But emails published in the Freeh report suggest Paterno closely followed a 1998 police investigation of Sandusky that ended without charges. In an email captioned “Jerry,” Curley asked Schultz: “Anything new in this department? Coach is anxious to know where it stands.” If Paterno were alive today, he’d be facing perjury and child endangerment charges at the very least. Since he wimped out and died, the victims will have to sue his estate civilly. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5528 "2012-10-12T19:46:39Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > As for me, in a more innocent time - i.e., the era JoePa grew up in - I could see instances of it happening in ways that were devoid of sexual intent. What was it that you just accused **MODALIZE** of doing? Something about supposition and guesswork? Really? How in the world could you know what intent there was? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5529 "2012-10-12T19:48:34Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Tell it to the authorities who investigated the original hug and found no prosecutable wrongdoing. > > As for me, in a more innocent time - i.e., the era JoePa grew up in - I could see instances of it happening in ways that were devoid of sexual intent. I described some of these in the first stage of the thread and won’t go over it all again now because you people aren’t interested in any kind of substantive discussion. Nowadays, however, with virtually every form of sexual expression and deviancy (i.e., girls/cup) being given free rein and every Walmart checkstand contains Cosmo covers bleating out ways to give the best blow jobs, I think naked hugs in a shower between adults and children could understandably be considered suspect. Ahh, so you’re one of those people that actually believes that people and society were “cleaner” in the past. I think that’s bullshit, of course, but that’s not all. JoePa served in the Army. As anyone of any age who has served in the military can attest, it’s not possible to serve in the military and _not_ hear about detailed descriptions of every possible act of deviancy and debauchery that mankind has invented. It’s laughable to think that JoePa wasn’t aware that child molesters existed. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5530 "2012-10-12T19:49:06Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Asking for the third time, where are you getting the information that this method of reporting was requested by the local police? And who investigated the 1998 report; how can it be “longstanding campus protocol” to report to campus police if the only relevant preceding event we know of was reported to someone else? It’s covered in the late 2010, early 2011 part of the thread. A search may or may not reveal it. Perhaps Google. You could try I’m not gonna bother because I’ve been keeping up with the thread. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5531 "2012-10-12T19:51:39Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](#): > > What was it that you just accused **MODALIZE** of doing? Something about supposition and guesswork? Really? How in the world could you know what intent there was? Don’t be silly. He asked what my view was. I gave it. I never proposed it as concrete, as so many of this thread’s posters are doing with their suppositions. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5532 "2012-10-12T19:55:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ahh, so you’re one of those people that actually believes that people and society were “cleaner” in the past. I think that’s bullshit, of course, but that’s not all. JoePa served in the Army. As anyone of any age who has served in the military can attest, it’s not possible to serve in the military and _not_ hear about detailed descriptions of every possible act of deviancy and debauchery that mankind has invented. It’s laughable to think that JoePa wasn’t aware that child molesters existed. Perhaps he pined for those hoary days when it was a lot easier for child molesters to get away with it, and decided to relive them by letting Sandusky get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5533 "2012-10-12T20:00:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ahh, so you’re one of those people that actually believes that people and society were “cleaner” in the past. I think that’s bullshit, of course, but that’s not all. JoePa served in the Army. As anyone of any age who has served in the military can attest, it’s not possible to serve in the military and _not_ hear about detailed descriptions of every possible act of deviancy and debauchery that mankind has invented. It’s laughable to think that JoePa wasn’t aware that child molesters existed. Heck, Paterno was Catholic. If he wasn’t familiar with the concept of official looking-the-other-way, then he was an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5534 "2012-10-12T20:01:15Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Don’t be silly. He asked what my view was. I gave it. I never proposed it as concrete In other words… LOSING! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5535 "2012-10-12T20:02:44Z")
If there’s someone being silly here, it’s you. Your understanding and knowledge of who JP actually was is entirely supposition, based upon how the media presented him - I mean, you didn’t know him personally, correct? To be fair, I think that most of how he came across is likely spot on, and he did do a lot of commendable things for sure. However, there’s no way that any public figure can be fully known by the masses. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5536 "2012-10-12T20:04:45Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > The Freeh report said Paterno and the other university officials hushed up child sexual abuse allegations against Sandusky in 2001 for fear of bad publicity. I say they didn’t. So far as I know we both have equal proof of our allegations. > [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > **Freeh described Paterno as “an integral part” of the agreement to not report the incident to the proper authorities. According to his report, Spanier, Schultz and Curley drew up a plan that called for reporting Sandusky to the state Department of Public Welfare in 2001. But Curley later said in an email that he changed his mind “after giving it more thought and talking it over with Joe.”** I’ve covered this in detail in a previous post which was reposted at least once more by **Guinastasia**. Freeh has no proof as to anything Paterno said to Curley and is merely jumping to the conclusion that Paterno dissuaded Curley from going to the authorities because that’s what Freeh wants to believe. Paterno could just as well have told Curley he had no opinion on how Curley should proceed in light of the previous hugging incident that was investigated and dropped and that it was up to Curley as to how to proceed. > [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > The report also called into question the truthfulness of Paterno’s grand jury testimony last year, when he was asked whether he knew of any abuse allegations against Sandusky before the 2001 episode in which Sandusky was spotted assaulting a boy in the locker room showers. > > “I do not know of anything else that Jerry would be involved in of that nature, no,” Paterno testified in a grand jury appearance that lasted only a few minutes. He added that a rumor “may have been discussed in my presence, something else about somebody. I don’t know. I don’t remember, and I could not honestly say I heard a rumor.” > > But emails published in the Freeh report suggest Paterno closely followed a 1998 police investigation of Sandusky that ended without charges. In an email captioned “Jerry,” Curley asked Schultz: “Anything new in this department? Coach is anxious to know where it stands.” > > If Paterno were alive today, he’d be facing perjury and child endangerment charges at the very least. Since he wimped out and died, the victims will have to sue his estate civilly. Since we don’t know the context or period of time in which Paterno took the question we cannot automatically assume that he was denying knowledge of the first shower hug incident. He may have been saying he was unaware of any other serious sexual allegations along the line of what McQueary described and which he didn’t connect up with the previous shower hug that the authorites investigated and dropped. Further, the fact he may have been anxious to know the outcome of the original hug investigation is meaningless as well. At the time, Sandusky wasn’t all that far removed from the football program and it would have been natural for Paterno to want to know what the investigation was revealing about this man he’d known for thirty years. Once the investigation determined no criminal wrongdoing occurred he may well have simply dropped it from his mind or failed to draw an equivalence between that occasion and the matters he was being quizzed about by the Grand Jury. One thing we do know for a certainty is that there is absolutely no evidence that at any time did Joe Paterno attempt to interfere with or obstruct that investigation in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5537 "2012-10-12T20:10:47Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It’s covered in the late 2010, early 2011 part of the thread. A search may or may not reveal it. Perhaps Google. You could try I’m not gonna bother because I’ve been keeping up with the thread. 🙂 Dude, it’s your argument, so it’s your job to back it up. And you’ve been keeping up with this thread so well that I had to ask three times just to get brushed off. [One](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15572457&postcount=5315) [Two](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15575799&postcount=5365) [Three](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15584356&postcount=5518) See, links. It’s really not that hard. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5538 "2012-10-12T20:17:27Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](#): > > If there’s someone being silly here, it’s you. Your understanding and knowledge of who JP actually was is entirely supposition, based upon how the media presented him - I mean, you didn’t know him personally, correct? To be fair, I think that most of how he came across is likely spot on, and he did do a lot of commendable things for sure. However, there’s no way that any public figure can be fully known by the masses. Which is why I’ve based my arguments largely on the evidence (or more accurately the lack thereof) in regard to Paterno’s alleged culpability in knowinig about and covering up for Sandusky’s raping of children on the Penn State campus. To wit: there is none. That’s it. There is zero evidence that Joe Paterno ever knew about or covered up the fact that Jerry Sandusky was raping kids. Period! All the hysteria in this thread, and all of Penn State’s ridiculous and utterly idiotic self-immolation is based on nothing but the baseless and wholly unsupported conclusion that he and others in the Penn State heirarchy (for whom there is also no such evidence) did. But what can I say? Sometimes in the course of human events hysteria and idiocy rule the day. At least you imbeciles aren’t getting away with carting people people off to the guillotine. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5539 "2012-10-12T20:23:21Z")
Robot Arm, yours is a simple, direct and relevant question. Therefore, it was _never_ going to be answered. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5540 "2012-10-12T20:23:45Z")
**SA** , please address this: Curley and Schultz confirm that they’re going to tell the authorities, but then the next day Curley tells Schultz and Spanier that he has changed his mind after speaking with JP and that they’re going to try and get Sandusky to seek professional help first before reporting him. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5541 "2012-10-12T20:24:29Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Dude, it’s your argument, so it’s your job to back it up. > > And you’ve been keeping up with this thread so well that I had to ask three times just to get brushed off. > > [One](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15572457&postcount=5315) > [Two](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15575799&postcount=5365) > [Three](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15584356&postcount=5518) > > See, links. It’s really not that hard. No, it’s not my responsibility to endlessly point back to issues already discussed in the thread. It’s your responsibility to keep up with the thread yourself. I ignored you because I was involved in other arguments which I felt took precedence and didn’t want to be bothered. Once I had time (and frankly, inclination :)) I answered you. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/5542 "2012-10-12T20:26:54Z")
In support of my earlier comment, I will demonstrate: > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > That’s it. There is zero evidence that Joe Paterno ever knew about or covered up the fact that Jerry Sandusky was raping kids. Period! I notice you are very specific in using the words “rape” or “raping”. My question is: is there any evidence that Joe Paterno ever knew about or covered up the fact that Jerry Sandusky was sexually assaulting kids? A simple question, never to be answered. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=276) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=278)