# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 321
**Author:** ![Mithras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Mithras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithras)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6403 "2014-03-06T21:04:48Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The degree of Paterno’s responsibility was deternined by what McQueary told him at the time. Our primary source of info about what McQueary told him at the time is what McQueary is saying about it now. If McQueary’s credibility is low, then that takes a hit as well. > > Ditto for what actually happened in the shower. The primary significance of what actually happened - in the context of this thread - is in what McQueary said about it at the time. To the extent that there is some doubt that McQueary saw the kid being unambiguously molested, that makes it less likely that this is what he communicated to Paterno at the time. Everyone knows you should hesitate before running for any political office because your entire past becomes fair game for opponents and can be used to publicly smear you. These smears might be about things which wouldn’t be flaws in any other context. I know many people complain about it, but that’s just the way politics works. Politics and reports of child abuse, apparently. McQuery came forward to say he witnessed a now convicted child abuser molesting a child. Many people (including ESPN apparently) think it’s so important that Joe Paterno be deified that they’re willing to tear McQuery’s life apart. It’s disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6404 "2014-03-06T21:11:02Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > No. Just no. > > The “unambiguously” part is still bullshit. McQueary reported observing something that a number of “mandated reporters” declared to be more than sufficient for making such a report. Only if Paterno had judged McQueary to be totally non-credible, a raving loon, a person known to be given to flights of fancy, would his testimony directly to Paterno been insufficient to obligate Paterno to report. Even Paterno’s own recounting of what he heard from McQueary was more than sufficient to obligate him, so we need not judge McQueary’s later statements ourselves for their own credibility. > > The standard was met, as even Paterno recounted it. Paterno shirked his responsibility. Paterno did report it. The question here is about whether Paterno, on subsequently seeing Sandusky still up and about and on campus, could reasonably assume that it had been investigated and dealt with appropriately, or whether he should have appreciated on this basis that it must have been covered up. If McQueary said he saw apparent child rape, as he later claimed, then that imposes more of a responsibility on Paterno to have realized that something was amiss. If McQueary just vaguely said he saw something that he thought was very inapropriate (as Paterno claimed), then perhaps not. So McQueary’s credibility in his current statements about what it was that he told Paterno are important. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6405 "2014-03-06T21:29:11Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The subject of this thread is not Sandusky, it’s Paterno. > > And the case against Paterno rests on Victim 2 and the credibility of McQueary. > > [I’m aware that there are some who are more interested in cardboard tubes and such, but this was a long thread, and there may be others who are interested in the ostensible subject itself.] > > That’s extremely far fetched. If a grand jury issues an indictment it’s not like you can just confuse it with another grand jury. > > But beyond being a far-fetched suggestion to begin with, you’re also factually wrong. Here’s a link to the [GJ report](http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedfiles/press/sandusky-grand-jury-presentment.pdf) They identify themselves as the thirtythird GJ in the first sentence. And the statement about McQueary being extremely credible is on top of page 8. > > No one lied about anything. The 33rd GJ did say he was extremely credible. However, since they never heard him testify, the value of this assessment is lessened. 1. There is no case against Paterno. He was never indicted. There wasn’t really any serious consideration for indicting him. And he’s dead. I think it would be extremely hard to prove that he didn’t do the bare minimum that was required of him. But I don’t think its possible to say he did more than the bare minimum. Its just that some people now think he’s a dick. 2. You are hanging your hat on the fact that now one grand juror retroactively thinks he was not credible. One out of 46. The level of proof needed to get an indictment is only probable cause. They only have to present enough evidence and give enough testimony to get a majority to vote for the indictment. The fact that one juror now says he doubts the credibility of one witness is totally irrelevant. At trial they were able to get a unanimous verdict at a much higher level of proof. 3. If you want to continue to pick at what this one guy said long after his involvement was over fine. Just understand it isn’t relevant to anything. 4. The fact that juror number 16 or whatever is now saying this in no way abrogates anyone’s responsibility to report. I think the most interesting thing about the article is the revelation that McQueary apparently revealed to some of his players that he had been a victim of sexual abuse as a child. I think that may explain why he didn’t jump in and stop the assault that he witnessed. > [@](#): > > The degree of Paterno’s responsibility was deternined by what McQueary told him at the time. No. Just no. That’s the whole point of mandatory reporting laws. The reporter (teacher, coach, whatever) is not supposed to make a judgement call on how credible the witness or victim is. They have to report it so those with the experience and ability to act on it can make that determination. That’s why its called mandatory reporting and not only when you feel like it reporting. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6406 "2014-03-06T21:35:57Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Paterno did report it. > > The question here is about whether Paterno, on subsequently seeing Sandusky still up and about and on campus, could reasonably assume that it had been investigated and dealt with appropriately, or whether he should have appreciated on this basis that it must have been covered up. > > If McQueary said he saw apparent child rape, as he later claimed, then that imposes more of a responsibility on Paterno to have realized that something was amiss. If McQueary just vaguely said he saw something that he thought was very inapropriate (as Paterno claimed), then perhaps not. > > So McQueary’s credibility in his current statements about what it was that he told Paterno are important. You are entitled to your opinion. However, there is one person that happened to hear exactly what McQuery said who believes that Joe Paterno should have done more. That was Joe Paterno. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6407 "2014-03-06T21:41:07Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > You are entitled to your opinion. However, there is one person that happened to hear exactly what McQuery said who believes that Joe Paterno should have done more. That was Joe Paterno. Yeah, but everyone thinks that when they realize their actions caused a tragedy. You always could have done more. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6408 "2014-03-06T21:48:08Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yeah, but everyone thinks that when they realize their actions caused a tragedy. You always could have done more. Those others that are currently under indictment don’t seem to believe so. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6409 "2014-03-06T22:17:10Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Paterno did report it. > > The question here is about whether Paterno, on subsequently seeing Sandusky still up and about and on campus, could reasonably assume that it had been investigated and dealt with appropriately, or whether he should have appreciated on this basis that it must have been covered up. > > \ By “here” do you mean at post #6397? Again, no. Even fuck no. Mandated reporting is mandated because it removes the element of judgment about credibility from the evaluation. Only if the person giving testimony is such a loon, such a known liar that anything and everything they say not just _can be_ but _should be_ dismissed out of hand might – _might_ – there be any scintilla of flexibility. And if by “here” you mean “in this thread”, then you should go back and review the number of times this has already been gone over, and over, and over again. Paterno made the most minimal report he could possibly make, then conspired to find ways to let Sandusky off the hook and turn a blind eye. He knew full well there was no real investigation and Sandusky hadn’t been “dealt with appropriately” by any measure beyond protection of the reputation of the university and Paterno’s football program. I really don’t see any value in recounting all this again. It was covered voluminously and protractedly in the thread itself. Go back and read it. Current insinuations about McQueary’s credibility are really weak sauce and not sufficient reason IMHO to resurrect this train wreck of a thread. If you want to bring it back to life, at least bring back the entertainment factor. Give us 27% crazification. And give us paper towel tubes. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6410 "2014-03-07T14:21:27Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > By “here” do you mean at post #6397? Again, no. Even fuck no. Mandated reporting is mandated because it removes the element of judgment about credibility from the evaluation. Only if the person giving testimony is such a loon, such a known liar that anything and everything they say not just _can be_ but _should be_ dismissed out of hand might – _might_ – there be any scintilla of flexibility. I’ve already addressed why the mandated reporter issue is irrelevant here. Not sure why you just ignore that and keep going on about it. > [@](#): > > And if by “here” you mean “in this thread”, then you should go back and review the number of times this has already been gone over, and over, and over again. Paterno made the most minimal report he could possibly make, then conspired to find ways to let Sandusky off the hook and turn a blind eye. He knew full well there was no real investigation and Sandusky hadn’t been “dealt with appropriately” by any measure beyond protection of the reputation of the university and Paterno’s football program. You’re exagerating. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6411 "2014-03-07T15:05:49Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You’re exagerating. And you’re a fucktwat. Have a nice weekend. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6412 "2014-03-07T15:06:31Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > \ You’re exagerating. Hardly. You staked out your position in your very first post (#249) > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > FWIW, I don’t think, based on the facts that are settled at this point, that JP is necessarily morally culpable at all. > > ISTM that the righteous indignation that surrounds anything relating to child abuse these days is no different than that of fanatics of other times and places, over other crimes. > > [Note: the first paragraph would not stand if in fact JP knew that the kid was being raped. But it’s not clear that he knew or should have known, since it’s not clear what he was told. The assumption that he must have known is itself part of the child abuse hysteria sanctimony, IMHO.] and nothing since has caused you to question your conclusion. Initially you blamed “righteous indignation” and “fanatics”. And now, more than 6,000 posts later, you continue to search for some means by which to justify Paterno’s actions (or lack of same). If the best you can come up with after all this time is that one out of 46 Grand Jurors might, in hindsight, have questioned McQueary’s credibility about one or another part of his testimony… Well… I think it’s time to give it up. You’re not persuading anybody, you’re just flinging dust in the air to obscure what was quite plain to everyone. Well, everyone except you and someone else I’ll not mention. Face it, Paterno put his football team and his carefully nurtured reputation above his concern for at least one child, and connived and contrived to minimize the incident to protect himself and his program. Although I’m sure it wasn’t Paterno’s intention, this course of action allowed a sexual predator to continue his depredations, whereas a more diligent investigation at the time could have prevented this. JoPa fucked up. And in so doing, tarnished his reputation for all time. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6413 "2014-03-07T15:12:58Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Hardly. > > You staked out your position in your very first post (#249) > and nothing since has caused you to question your conclusion. That’s not completely correct. When the Freeh Report was issued, it transpired that - contrary to his statements - JP apparently had some input into the management of the issue, and IMO this means he is also on the hook for more of the way it went down. I posted this at the time. Nonetheless, I think your characterization is highly exagerated. > [@](#): > > If the best you can come up with after all this time is that one out of 46 Grand Jurors might, in hindsight, have questioned McQueary’s credibility about one or another part of his testimony… The cite I posted had several elements, and I said upfront that the 1 juror was not the significant part of it. If the best you can come up with is to distort my position … ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6414 "2014-03-07T15:40:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > If the best you can come up with is to distort my position … Po-tay-toe – po-tah-toe… To-may-toe – to-mah-toe… **Let’s call the whole thing off!** Really, there just isn’t any substance here. This long after the fact, any “new revelations” are highly questionable. Past events are always colored by the passage of time. Peoples’ memories are plastic and subject to a host of influences. We simply aren’t going to learn anything now that will change the reality. Quothe me: > [@](#): > > Face it, Paterno put his football team and his carefully nurtured reputation above his concern for at least one child, and connived and contrived to minimize the incident to protect himself and his program. Although I’m sure it wasn’t Paterno’s intention, this course of action allowed a sexual predator to continue his depredations, whereas a more diligent investigation at the time could have prevented this. JoPa fucked up. And in so doing, tarnished his reputation for all time. As a summary of a “…time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program”, I think that about covers it. I’m bored with playing nit-picky games around and around this subject. You’re just wearing the same rut deeper and deeper. If you come up with anything of substance and moment sufficient to initiate a fresh debate, then state your premise, offer your evidence, and have at it. Preferably in a new thread without all this baggage. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6415 "2014-03-07T15:44:14Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > And you’re a fucktwat. Have a nice weekend. I’m not really on **F-P** ’s side of this issue but as parting shots go, that one needs work. Go away and think up something more worthy of this august forum. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6416 "2014-03-07T18:32:58Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’m not really on **F-P** ’s side of this issue but as parting shots go, that one needs work. Go away and think up something more worthy of this august forum. Really? It’s a sentimental favorite of mine; used to use it all the time back in the day. You know, when I was 11. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6417 "2014-03-09T02:50:51Z")
Oh, I see. You guys just wanted to have the last post. \ ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6418 "2014-03-09T15:12:24Z")
This thread is back? I wish that Joe Paterno would just die so it could die, too. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6419 "2014-03-09T15:18:30Z")
Who \*will \*get the last post here? If the mods haven’t yet seen fit to put this thread out of its misery, they never will. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6420 "2014-03-09T15:39:24Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Who \*will \*get the last post here? If the mods haven’t yet seen fit to put this thread out of its misery, they never will. Nice meta try at last post. Impressive! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6421 "2014-03-09T15:54:35Z")
Spoilsport. ☹ 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6422 "2014-03-09T15:58:33Z")
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