# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 328
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6543 "2015-01-17T08:19:41Z")
Saw Tweets tonight about the big parties at State College now that Paternos precious wins have been reinstated. Now even talk about how soon can we put that obnoxious statue back. There were parties all over town when the Bowl ban was lifted earlier this year. Hey, fuck those little boys who were ass-raped by a former Penn State coach that was running a kiddie charity based on Penn States campus long after evidence came out about what he was doing, and was covered up, as long as we get our football back, who cares, right? Glad to see you learned your lesson, Creepy Penn State Fans. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6544 "2015-01-17T11:12:15Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > Saw Tweets tonight about the big parties at State College now that Paternos precious wins have been reinstated. Now even talk about how soon can we put that obnoxious statue back. So, there are idiots in the world. > [@](#): > > Hey, fuck those little boys who were ass-raped by a former Penn State coach that was running a kiddie charity based on Penn States campus long after evidence came out about what he was doing, and was covered up, as long as we get our football back, who cares, right? This is obnoxious presumption. > [@](#): > > Glad to see you learned your lesson, Creepy Penn State Fans. What lesson were they to learn. What role do you believe the football team proper and the fans played in this event? russian heel? Is that satire? ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6545 "2015-01-17T11:23:09Z")
> [@akennett](#): > > NCAA: National Child Abuse Advocates. Awww, it’s so cute when youngsters start learning their internet memes. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6546 "2015-01-17T11:28:22Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > True, but the complete lack of accountability of the athletic department makes them complicit. Penn St still appears to have its head in the sand regarding the whole thing. How the fuck can complete unaccountability make anyone complicit in anything? I’m not sure you know what those two competing terms mean. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6547 "2015-01-17T11:41:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, not exactly during games . . . > > You didn’t know about Penn State’s unique halftime shows? You know, I’ll almost take your hinted-at alternative over the routine marching band-cheerleading tripe. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6548 "2015-01-17T13:29:09Z")
As much as this case disturbs and sickens me, voiding out the wins was a knee-jerk reaction by the NCAA that did nothing to bring justice to those who needed it and meted out punishment to those who didn’t deserve it. If, for example, my boss was exposed as a guy who helped (knowingly or unknowingly, it doesn’t matter) facilitate a kiddie-diddler, there is no justice in erasing my work history with the company. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6549 "2015-01-17T13:47:37Z")
The wins were and are viewed as Paterno’s particularly (the immediate significance, as reported in the linked story, being his “winningest” status), and the institution’s, not the individual work of hundreds of players throughout those years. Punishing Paterno’s and the institutions’s complicity was kind of supposed to be the point of the penalty in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6550 "2015-01-17T14:19:24Z")
Old Joe was solid Catholic, wasn’t he? Maybe he could be made the patron saint of ‘looking the other way’. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6551 "2015-01-17T14:40:00Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > The wins were and are viewed as Paterno’s particularly (the immediate significance, as reported in the linked story, being his “winningest” status), and the institution’s, not the individual work of hundreds of players throughout those years. Punishing Paterno’s and the institutions’s complicity was kind of supposed to be the point of the penalty in the first place. If the success of the football team was somehow generated or assisted by Sandusky’s actions I can see this argument bearing fruit. But it wasn’t - hell, they voided the wins gathered _after_ Sandusky left the program. Why not void the wins generated from 1969-1999 when Sandusky was a PSU employee? It’s not like he just started raping kids in 1998. Anyway, there are better ways to punish “Paterno’s and the institutions complicity” than wiping out the results of 12 years of work by thousands of people who did nothing wrong. The fine was one of the ways, removing Joe Pa from the official history of PSU (as much as possible) is another. But denying reality and saying “these games didn’t happen because somebody no longer associated with the program did something unspeakable” is not justice, it’s feel-good knee-jerkism. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6552 "2015-01-17T16:09:48Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > If the success of the football team was somehow generated or assisted by Sandusky’s actions I can see this argument bearing fruit. No, that’s kind of backwards. It’s not that Sandusky made the football success possible. It’s that the football success, and the overwhelming status and exemptions from normal standards of decency and proportion that engendered, pervading not only Penn State itself but much of the fan community in central Pennsylvania… made Sandusky possible. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6553 "2015-01-17T16:18:03Z")
There are fouls committed on the field, which can cause the entire team to be penalized. Losing yards, timeouts, whatever. Often resulting in losing the game even! What’s next? The rest of the players crying to the refs, “But you shouldn’t penalize us all! What about all our hard work?” This is just more shameful behaviour in profession sport. Where ‘sportsman like conduct’ used to imply something worthy, it’s rapidly morphing into overtly winning at any cost. Including over looking punching out your wife, killing dogs with your barehands and even criminal child abuse stretching over years. At what point do we begin to steer our young men away from professional sport because it does the opposite to building character? ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6554 "2015-01-17T16:20:09Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > No, that’s kind of backwards. It’s not that Sandusky made the football success possible. It’s that the football success, and the overwhelming status and exemptions from normal standards of decency and proportion that engendered, pervading not only Penn State itself but much of the fan community in central Pennsylvania… made Sandusky possible. I intuitively suspect there is a relevant point you’re trying to make here, but it seems to be so deeply buried in sludge that I’m not apologetic when I state that I can’t find it with infra-red goggles and a 15-foot cane pole. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6555 "2015-01-17T16:32:07Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > No, that’s kind of backwards. It’s not that Sandusky made the football success possible. It’s that the football success, and the overwhelming status and exemptions from normal standards of decency and proportion that engendered, pervading not only Penn State itself but much of the fan community in central Pennsylvania… made Sandusky possible. Um, no. Sandusky would have been a pedophile regardless of his association with PSU, the state of Pennsylvania, Joe Paterno, etc. He could have been a shift leader at a Burger King in San Luis Obispo, CA and still would be able to commit pedophilia. Boiled down to its essence, your argument says that football fandom made Sandusky a pedophile. No. Sandusky made Sandusky a pedophile. His association with the PSU program allowed him the ability to commit his acts on the PSU campus/sports facilities, but it did not make him a pedophile. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6556 "2015-01-17T16:39:22Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Sandusky would have been a pedophile regardless of his association with PSU, the state of Pennsylvania, Joe Paterno, etc. He could have been a shift leader at a Burger King in San Luis Obispo, CA and still would be able to commit pedophilia. Not with the frequency and cover that PSU football gave him, directly and indirectly. The shift leader at Burger King doesn’t get to take boys out of their classes at local schools for “special” trips, for example, and have teachers and admins not even think to notify parents–and then later to chastise those parents for making trouble when they find out. > [@JohnT](#): > > Boiled down to its essence, your argument says that football fandom made Sandusky a pedophile. Absolutely not. Football fandom _enabled_ his pedophilia. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6557 "2015-01-17T16:41:23Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > There are fouls committed on the field, which can cause the entire team to be penalized. Losing yards, timeouts, whatever. Often resulting in losing the game even! > > What’s next? The rest of the players crying to the refs, “But you shouldn’t penalize us all! What about all our hard work?” > > This is just more shameful behaviour in profession sport. Where ‘sportsman like conduct’ used to imply something worthy, it’s rapidly morphing into overtly winning at any cost. Including over looking punching out your wife, killing dogs with your barehands and even criminal child abuse stretching over years. > > At what point do we begin to steer our young men away from professional sport because it does the opposite to building character? Your argument makes little sense. “Fouls committed on the field” are fouls that are committed within the context of the team and the game they are playing. Sandusky’s crimes had nothing to do with the team and their won/loss record. Now his _association_ with the team made it possible for him to gain (possibly) greater access to his targets\*… but the team itself was not guilty of making the guy a pedophile. If Sandusky had been a manager at Burger King and committed these acts after hours in the Burger King office, would it make sense to banish the work records of all the non-complicit employees who worked at the restaurant? That’s what the argument for the removal of the W/L records comes down to… and worse, Sandusky wasn’t even “managing” the football team. To be truly consistent, it was the _athletic department_ that gave him access and everybody calling for the erasure of the W/L records for the football team should be calling for the erasure of the W/L records of **all** PSU athletic teams from 1969-onward. Hell, let’s go one step further and declare that, since this a PSU division, that all diplomas awarded since 1969 are now erased from history. Why not? \*Though it was his charity that gave him the most access to his victims, far more than his association with PSU. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6558 "2015-01-17T16:44:32Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Not with the frequency and cover that PSU football gave him, directly and indirectly. > > The shift leader at Burger King doesn’t get to take boys out of their classes at local schools for “special” trips, for example, and have teachers and admins not even think to notify parents–and then later to chastise those parents for making trouble when they find out. > > Absolutely not. Football fandom _enabled_ his pedophilia. No, it was his “charity” that enabled his pedophilia. Sandusky wasn’t taking boys out of classes for special trips because he was a PSU coach, he was doing it in the role as the leader of the Second Mile charity. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6559 "2015-01-17T16:58:17Z")
Oh please! That was funded, and accorded deference, on the strength of the PSU football connection. Football was Sandusky’s lure for victims he found through Second Mile. The reluctance to investigate his behavior with those victims was surely based on his accrued status from PSU football. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6560 "2015-01-17T17:03:30Z")
Yes, but none of that makes the _PSU football team_ guilty. I’m not too sure why this is so hard to follow. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6561 "2015-01-17T17:14:20Z")
The individual team players were not guilty, and were not punished. My argument is that the institutional culture of the football program, and indeed the regional culture surrounding the football institution, _did_ share in the loss of proportion and decency that I mentioned. Penalizing the “history” of Penn State football, including but not limited to deglorifying the “legacy” of Paterno, was the right thing to do. The NCAA did not go far enough in other respects (the school was allowed to keep playing every year, for example), but there was nothing unjust about the vacating of wins. That’s just a number, really significant only to those who most share in the very skewed perspective that nurtured Sandusky’s crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/6562 "2015-01-17T17:14:46Z")
CNN reports that a judge has to accept this settlement, so lets hope its not a done deal just yet. The only list Paterno deserves to be the top of is “Giant Asspipe”. Goddammit, I thought we were finally done with this fucking bullshit! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=327) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=329)