# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/721 "2011-11-11T03:57:37Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Yeah, there’s no way that’s what was going on. Paterno knew. He knew before McQueary came to him. Sandusky almost certainly retired because of the investigation into his criminal proclivities, which I wonder how that was kept a secret from Paterno. I would be willing to bet that’s why the specifics of what McQueary told Paterno are so uncertain. What McQueary probably really said to him was “he’s still doing it.” I’ve been trying to avoid speculating, but this is basically how I feel. Great post. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/722 "2011-11-11T04:01:21Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > Again, spent money isn’t available. If you are faced with rising costs and lower revenues than you have a real problem. I saw something, can’t cite it, that the football program’s revenues will probably drop by $10 million next year. The financial hit could get huge not to mention the cost of their insurance premiums. Insurance companies don’t pay claims, they just give you a loan that you are expected to pay off in the future through increased premiums. > > By all appearances, the case against the PSU athletic dept. is far more of a slam dunk than the accusations against Catholic dioceses. That bumps the settlement costs tremendously. > > There is going to be a huge hit to PSU’s financials. Bet on it. Who the hell said they wouldn’t take a hit? I was addressing the idiotic “Penn State is going to wish they’d never heard of football” statement. If their profits drop by $10 mill, they’re still making close to $50 mm per year. It’s going to sting, but that’s about it. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/723 "2011-11-11T04:03:11Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Really? You do realize that most pedophiles are working somewhere, often for decades. Why would you think every person who knows or employs a pedophile would be under some cloud of suspicion particularly if that person turned him in as soon as he found out? The particularly funny part about your certainty on this matter is that even given that the whole situation has become a colossal clusterfuck, there are still people who idolize the guy. If he had come forward as soon as he was aware of the issue, people would respect that. I still contend it would have worked out better than any cover-up could have reasonably could have. I seriously doubt most pediphiles are parading their vicims around at work, as Sandusky was doing. Most abusers are not quite as blatant about their behavior as he seems to have been. There are people who write love letters to serial killers, too. I’m not saying the guy wasn’t a good football coach. I don’t know and don’t care about football. It is a shame that an otherwise good career has to end like this. But it’s no fault but his. Good guys don’t ignore and cover up child sexual abuse. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/724 "2011-11-11T04:10:44Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Who the hell said they wouldn’t take a hit? I was addressing the idiotic “Penn State is going to wish they’d never heard of football” statement. > > If their profits drop by $10 mill, they’re still making close to $50 mm per year. It’s going to sting, but that’s about it. If the $10M figure is correct that is only for one year’s revenue and doesn’t involve settlement and insurance costs. Stretch that over the next 10 years. It could get huge. Remember, don’t factor in spent money. It’s a matter of budgeting over the future. Of course, the soccer team, the thought of going D1 with the hockey program and the women’s programs will be the ones that suffer. It’s never the perps (the glorious football program). They just pass it off. Plus, as we’ve seen the football fans are clueless idiots. Maybe when they go to Hell they can get JoePa’s autograph. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/725 "2011-11-11T04:21:36Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > That assumes there were no previous cover-ups. Do you have any evidence that of this? If not, I would contend it is not fruitful to discuss. > [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > The coverup worked damn well for a fucking decade. There was no cover-up involving Paterno. There is no evidence that there was, nor would it make any sense for him to engage in one. Let’s go through this VERY SLOWLY so you can understand: Step 1: GA sees Sandusky rapping a child in the locker room Step 2: GA tells his father Step 3: GA tells Paterno Step 4: Paterno is convinced they cannot let this get out. Step 5: Paterno tells two more people Step 6: They all agree to not make an issue of it At this point, 5 people now have to be convinced to cover this up. Two of whom are only involved because Paterno told them. What kind of shitty ass cover-up is he engaging in where he figures telling more people who may or may not be desirous to participate would be a good way to keep the story under wraps? Next, they continue to allow Sandusky to hang around PS and to bring boys on campus, increasing the likelihood they will have to cover up future incidents involving more and more people. That’s not even considering the victims whose suffering it’s begin contended they turned a blind eye to. Do you really think that sounds plausible? > [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Yes, some people would have supported Paterno regardless, but the damage to PSU would have still been gigantic had this come out in 2002. That was a few years after Sandusky’s first indictment, remember. But, yeah, who would have been angry about that?:rolleyes: More gigantic than it is now? I sincerely doubt it given that the time has allowed Sandusky to accumulate more victims, and a longer track record of malfeasance. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/726 "2011-11-11T04:24:11Z")
> [@SnakesCatLady](#): > > I seriously doubt most pediphiles are parading their vicims around at work, as Sandusky was doing. Most abusers are not quite as blatant about their behavior as he seems to have been. Actually, many pedophiles do “parade their victims” around since many take jobs and positions to be in direct contact with potential victims. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/727 "2011-11-11T04:25:32Z")
**brickbacon** , you’re overlooking the fact that Sandusky was warned about inappropriate behavior with boys in 1998. You can’t convince me Paterno wasn’t aware of it. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/728 "2011-11-11T04:29:46Z")
Brickbacon your are being an idjiot. Your basic arguement seems to be that folks always act like Vulcans. And secondly, any possible scandal will automatically be revealed as soon as possible because it will only get worse later one (which it generally does though). Problem is, history is filled with people acting like idiots and people covering up scandals when a revelation sooner rather than later would have been obviously better. Hell, many times scandals are denied even long after its obvious that the time for denial/coverup has long since passed. Hell, Clinton still probably thinks the definition of “is” is still up for debate. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/729 "2011-11-11T04:31:12Z")
> [@SnakesCatLady](#): > > **brickbacon** , you’re overlooking the fact that Sandusky was warned about inappropriate behavior with boys in 1998. You can’t convince me Paterno wasn’t aware of it. Why not? What makes you assume he was aware of it? Considering that he just gave testimony under oath, why do you think that issue would not have come up if there was any evidence that Paterno was aware of Sandusky’s proclivities or past infractions? ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/730 "2011-11-11T04:46:52Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Why not? What makes you assume he was aware of it? Considering that he just gave testimony under oath, why do you think that issue would not have come up if there was any evidence that Paterno was aware of Sandusky’s proclivities or past infractions? If he _wasn’t_ aware of it, he wasn’t as good a coach as everyone seems to think he was. Isn’t that when Sandusky “retired”? Even though he still had an office, and keys, and apparently the right to take a shower in the locker room with 10 year olds. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/731 "2011-11-11T04:49:43Z")
> [@SnakesCatLady](#): > > If he _wasn’t_ aware of it, he wasn’t as good a coach as everyone seems to think he was. :dubious: How does this reflect on his coaching skills at all? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/732 "2011-11-11T04:57:16Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Brickbacon your are being an idjiot. Your basic arguement seems to be that folks always act like Vulcans. And secondly, any possible scandal will automatically be revealed as soon as possible because it will only get worse later one (which it generally does though). I am being an idiot? You are assuming there was a cover-up when there is scant evidence for it, nor does it seem to be in character for the main participant. I am actually pointing out the gaping holes in your logic, yet you just assume it has to be true because it makes for a better narrative. > [@billfish678](#): > > Problem is, history is filled with people acting like idiots and people covering up scandals when a revelation sooner rather than later would have been obviously better. True, but most of the time, the participants in a cover-up are involved and subject to legal ramifications or liability. There is not much of that in this case. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/733 "2011-11-11T05:21:04Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > :dubious: How does this reflect on his coaching skills at all? As Head Coach, I would assume (and I may very well be wrong, I know less than nothing about football) he is aware of the qualifications of his assistants. Since Sandusky was his assistant in '98 when he was warned about inappropriate behavior with children, I would think the Head Coach would be aware of that. If he wasn’t, he doesn’t have any business being Head Coach. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/734 "2011-11-11T06:01:59Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Do you have any evidence that of this? If not, I would contend it is not fruitful to discuss. I’m not using “cover up” as a loaded term. Call it what you want. Whatever you want to call it, Paterno kept his mouth shut for years. He was told in 2002 Sandusky had abused a child in the locker room shower. He knew Sandusky still had easy access to kids with The Second Mile for years afterward, including bringing them to the Penn State campus. He did nothing. That is the best case scenario for Paterno, which is already horrible. But now look at some more facts: Reports state that Paterno was in fact told Sandusky had raped a child in the showers in 2002. Do you believe those reports are lies? In 1998 Sandusky was under police investigation and admitted hugging a child in the Penn State showers. The DA decided not to charge him. It is hard to believe Paterno knew nothing about this. In 1999 Sandusky retired from Penn State. In 2000 Sandusky was witnessed abusing another child in the Penn State showers. Several employees were told. No report was filed. While not as likely as in 1998, it still seems pretty likely Paterno would have heard something. > [@brickbacon](#): > > More gigantic than it is now? I sincerely doubt it given that the time has allowed Sandusky to accumulate more victims, and a longer track record of malfeasance. To state the obvious: Paterno got an extra 10 years of being the squeaky clean super coach by not bringing the scandal into the open. That is arguably a fantastic outcome from an amoral point of view. For all he knew, it could have stayed hidden for more than 10 years. And he’s an old guy. ---
**Author:** ![Da\_Mikster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Da\_Mikster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Da_Mikster)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/735 "2011-11-11T06:24:36Z")
Knowing several folks who are… idealists. One of theirs biggest character flaws (besides being irritating as hell) is they tend to simply expect other folks are just like them, and don’t always notice those others aren’t until they get blindsided… If Paterno was told “We’ll look into it.” He may well have expected them to do exactly that. Nor would he necessarily question them telling him that they had, and it was not as it appeared (Which many idealist would choose to believe, because they WANT to.)… or it was “still being looked into”, until he finally quit asking. Knowing what I know about Paterno’s personality (I was at main in '84 and '85 you kind of get used to reading about the guy), “Don’t tell Joe, he’ll flip” may well have been the order of the day with folks who’s main concern was that the gravy train keep rolling. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/736 "2011-11-11T06:30:43Z")
Yes, it may well have. Except that McQueary did tell Joe. And Joe didn’t flip. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/737 "2011-11-11T07:13:48Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > How the hell can the main culprit be the scapegoat? the cover up began when McQueary decided to find out what his bosses wanted to do about the situation rather than calling the cops. Thank you for a comment that made clear a point I did not see clearly. Now we can return to the Pitting. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/738 "2011-11-11T07:26:21Z")
[Who knew what about Jerry Sandusky? Conflicting stories will come down to credibility](http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/11/who_knew_what_about_jerry_sand.html) > [@](#): > > In early 2010, before The Patriot-News broke the story of the Sandusky investigation, the newspaper confronted Spanier and asked him if he was aware of a grand jury investigation into Sandusky. His answer was no. > > By his own testimony before the grand jury, Spanier knew as early as 2002 that Sandusky and a young boy had been witnessed “horsing around” by a staff member in the locker room of the football building. > > It’s not clear if Spanier also knew about a six-week investigation by his university’s police force that centered around similar touching in a shower in 1998 that never led to charges. > > However, now-resigned Vice President Gary Schultz, who was in charge of the campus police in 1998 and in 2002, did know about both reports, and in his grand jury testimony, he acknowledged that they were similar — they both involved young boys and allegations of sexual misconduct in a shower at the football building. > > \ > > **The earliest documented report of possible abuse at the hands of Sandusky is in 1995** , when his now-legally adopted son was still a teenage foster child in his home. > > The adoption file for Matt Sandusky, who had a different name at the time, contains letters of concern from his mother to children and youth officials and to a Centre County judge. > > Matt’s biological mother, Debra Long, testified before the grand jury. > > \ > > Children and Youth Services placed him with the Sandusky family at Jerry Sandusky’s request. He knew Matt through The Second Mile. > > In his book, “Touched: The Jerry Sandusky Story” several pages are devoted to Matt. > > “He became an instant challenge for me,” Sandusky writes. > > Debra Long was allowed to visit her son only one-half day per month after he went to live with the Sanduskys. > > About four months after he went to live with Jerry, Matt attempted suicide with a girl who was also staying at Sandusky’s house. > > “The probation department has some serious concerns about the juvenile’s safety and his current progress in placement with the Sandusky family,” wrote Terry L. Trude, a school-based probation officer, days after the suicide attempt. > > The letter, addressed to Centre County Judge David Grine, also said Long was concerned about Matt’s safety and mental condition, and asked that Matt go to a different foster family > > \ > > The day Jerry Sandusky was arrested, Matt brought his kids over to Jerry’s house. The mother of Matt’s children almost immediately went to court to prevent future visits. A judge’s order now prevents Sandusky from having unsupervised contact or overnight visits with his grandchildren… Much more at source. Just when you think this whole sordid mess can’s possible get worse, it does so by the hour. Lots of heads still to roll. I believe it is going to take decades for PSU to recover from this…if it ever does. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/739 "2011-11-11T07:43:01Z")
Just a final excerpt from the above link: > [@](#): > > \*\*TWO THINGS ARE CERTAIN > 1995. > 1998. > 2000. > 2002. > 2008. > > _These dates spanning 13 years share two common threads that run through the entire grand jury presentment_. At each stage, boys voiced concern or pain or alarm at the conduct of Jerry Sandusky — or adults witnessed behavior they found troubling or alarming. > > And at each stage, other adults dismissed, minimized or failed to act upon those concerns.\*\* With the sheer number of people involved, it’s all going to come down to who jumps ship first – lots of squealing ahead. ---
**Author:** ![wedgehed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8edcca/32.png) [@wedgehed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wedgehed)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/740 "2011-11-11T10:43:26Z")
I have a question. Why was Mike McQueary called before the grand jury to begin with? How did they know he had anything to say about Sandusky? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=38)