# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/741 "2011-11-11T11:27:17Z")
How did all this come to the attention of the government anyway? Who broke the scandal? (Yeah, I could read the entire thread and all the attachments, but what are the chances of that happening?) ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/742 "2011-11-11T13:25:31Z")
You could read any of the attachments at all, really. > **[A Patriot-News Special Report: Who knew what about Jerry Sandusky? There were...](https://www.pennlive.com/midstate/2011/11/who_knew_what_about_jerry_sand.html)** > > Over and over, boys voiced pain or alarm at the conduct of Jerry Sandusky — or adults witnessed behavior they found troubling or alarming. Over and over, other adults dismissed, minimized or failed to act upon those concerns. ---
**Author:** ![Sinsaint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@Sinsaint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinsaint)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/743 "2011-11-11T13:56:24Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > How did all this come to the attention of the government anyway? Who broke the scandal? (Yeah, I could read the entire thread and all the attachments, but what are the chances of that happening?) A boy that Sandusky abused told his mother in 2008. She went to the high school AD/Football coach and he reported the abuse to authorities. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/744 "2011-11-11T13:56:58Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Step 1: GA sees Sandusky rapping a child in the locker room \*:Boom Boom, THUD!; Boom Boom, THUD!: “Now my name is Sandusky, I likes them husky, and I don’t listen to NO! I love Penn State, I really is great, and \* somebody should have put a bullet in my head or kicked in the balls so hard I couldn’t feel anything for the rest of my horrible, wretched life, which I spend in misery and pain.” My rap skills are not up to par. ---
**Author:** ![wedgehed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8edcca/32.png) [@wedgehed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wedgehed)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/745 "2011-11-11T14:05:12Z")
Sorry if I’m missing something obvious, but if no one reported to the police what Mike McQueary witnessed, why did the grand jury summon him? ---
**Author:** ![Sinsaint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@Sinsaint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinsaint)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/746 "2011-11-11T14:10:12Z")
> [@wedgehed](#): > > Sorry if I’m missing something obvious, but if no one reported to the police what Mike McQueary witnessed, why did the grand jury summon him? More than likely, somewhere in the course of the AG’s investigation someone spilled the beans about this incident. ---
**Author:** ![Chicagojeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@Chicagojeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicagojeff)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/747 "2011-11-11T14:14:10Z")
> [@SnakesCatLady](#): > > If he _wasn’t_ aware of it, he wasn’t as good a coach as everyone seems to think he was. > > Isn’t that when Sandusky “retired”? Even though he still had an office, and keys, and apparently the right to take a shower in the locker room with 10 year olds. Woman in the name of Lydell Mitchell Franco Harris and John Cappeletti watch your mouth.. Separate Joepa the coach from Joepa the enabler.. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/748 "2011-11-11T14:43:52Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > He made them hundreds of millions of dollars but what if, and I don’t know, that the eventual settlements cost them several hundreds of millions and there is a cap on the insurance coverage. Again, look at some of the Catholic diocese settlements. There have been bankruptcies. PSU won’t go bankrupt but the Pennsylvania taxpayers will pick up the cost. IANAL, but I don’t know if you can compare the Catholic Church situation to PSU from a legal liability standpoint. Unlike in the Catholic situation, none of the Sandusky victims were directly connected with PSU, and much of the abuse did not take place at PSU either. Also, while this may change as other victims come forward, of the victims in the GJ report, only one post-dated the 2002 incident that was covered up (that being Victim 1, who triggered the GJ investigation). Which is not to say that they have no liability at all or that they won’t be pressured to make some sort of settlement. But they do seem to be in a far stronger position than the Church, and I don’t think you can extrapolate from the one to the other. [I would think the Second Mile charity would be in a weaker position, if in fact they were notified by PSU, but they don’t have nearly as deep pockets.] ---
**Author:** ![Sinsaint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@Sinsaint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinsaint)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/749 "2011-11-11T15:46:23Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > IANAL, but I don’t know if you can compare the Catholic Church situation to PSU from a legal liability standpoint. > > Unlike in the Catholic situation, none of the Sandusky victims were directly connected with PSU, and much of the abuse did not take place at PSU either. Also, while this may change as other victims come forward, of the victims in the GJ report, only one post-dated the 2002 incident that was covered up (that being Victim 1, who triggered the GJ investigation). > > Which is not to say that they have no liability at all or that they won’t be pressured to make some sort of settlement. But they do seem to be in a far stronger position than the Church, and I don’t think you can extrapolate from the one to the other. > > [I would think the Second Mile charity would be in a weaker position, if in fact they were notified by PSU, but they don’t have nearly as deep pockets.] Here’s the thing… most of victims after the 2002 incident are likely to still be children. Up until this news broke they have probably believed it was just them and were too afraid to tell on him. Now that it’s out I bet there are tons of mothers and fathers having talks with their boys about whether Sandusky did something to them. Even from an obvious stand point, victim 1’s abuse started in 2007. Who was he abusing from 2002 to 2007? I doubt he just decided to take a few years off. From what I understand 10 to 15 investigators have been added to the case and calls are coming in daily about other possible victims. Give it a month or two and his victim count will surely double, if not triple. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/750 "2011-11-11T15:52:38Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > IANAL, but I don’t know if you can compare the Catholic Church situation to PSU from a legal liability standpoint. The person that started the investigation/prosecution (and is now Governor), commented early on that that this case was very similar to the church. > [@](#): > > Unlike in the Catholic situation, none of the Sandusky victims were directly connected with PSU, and much of the abuse did not take place at PSU either. Also, while this may change as other victims come forward, of the victims in the GJ report, only one post-dated the 2002 incident that was covered up (that being Victim 1, who triggered the GJ investigation). > > Which is not to say that they have no liability at all or that they won’t be pressured to make some sort of settlement. But they do seem to be in a far stronger position than the Church, and I don’t think you can extrapolate from the one to the other. Have you read the Clery Act or Title IX with respect to this type of stuff? Go read them and you will see what their requirements were for reporting and for preventing future incidents. The university looks to be in a pretty weak position. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/751 "2011-11-11T15:57:22Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Unlike in the Catholic situation, none of the Sandusky victims were directly connected with PSU, and much of the abuse did not take place at PSU either. Also, while this may change as other victims come forward, of the victims in the GJ report, only one post-dated the 2002 incident that was covered up (that being Victim 1, who triggered the GJ investigation). Oh, only _some_ of the abuse was on PSU. And only _one_ abuse case we know about after 2002. You’re right, clearly PSU shouldn’t be worried at all. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/752 "2011-11-11T15:59:57Z")
> [@Sinsaint](#): > > Even from an obvious stand point, victim 1’s abuse started in 2007. Who was he abusing from 2002 to 2007? I doubt he just decided to take a few years off. I would hardly be surprised if you’re right. But it’s also possible that getting caught in 2002 frightened him off for a few years. > [@RaftPeople](#): > > The person that started the investigation/prosecution (and is now Governor), commented early on that that this case was very similar to the church. Well, yeah, no doubt it is. But I was commenting on legal liability specifically, and I doubt if this was the focus of that guy’s comments. > [@](#): > > Have you read the Clery Act or Title IX with respect to this type of stuff? Go read them and you will see what their requirements were for reporting and for preventing future incidents. No, actually I haven’t. I started reading it yesterday after your earlier reference, but it’s long and I couldn’t find what you were referring to. You need to be more specific when citing this Act. I acknowledged upfront that they may have liability. I’m just suggesting that it’s less than the Catholic Church, for reasons given. > [@DragonAsh](#): > > Oh, only _some_ of the abuse was on PSU. And only _one_ abuse case we know about after 2002. You’re right, clearly PSU shouldn’t be worried at all. :rolleyes: Learn to read. And think, while you’re at it. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/753 "2011-11-11T16:02:31Z")
> [@Sinsaint](#): > > Give it a month or two and his victim count will surely double, if not triple. …at which point Sandusky will probably kill himself. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/754 "2011-11-11T16:06:05Z")
Change the name to State Penn Pederasts . Paterno might not live through a long trial, but he should face charges of some kind. He will deny any real information got to him. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/755 "2011-11-11T16:06:53Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Well, at least South Park and Tosh.0 will get some fresh material to work with. Chef makes his comeback as football coach? It almost writes itself after how they killed him off. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/756 "2011-11-11T16:09:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > No, actually I haven’t. I started reading it yesterday after your earlier reference, but it’s long and I couldn’t find what you were referring to. You need to be more specific when citing this Act. Don’t have time right now, but there is a handbook type of description that is more readable, it’s on one of the dept of education’s web sites. Google “handbook for campus crime department of education”. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/757 "2011-11-11T16:21:28Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > Don’t have time right now, but there is a handbook type of description that is more readable, it’s on one of the dept of education’s web sites. Google “handbook for campus crime department of education”. Did. [It’s 304 pages.](http://www2.ed.gov/admins/lead/safety/handbook-2.pdf) You’ve got to be more specific. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/758 "2011-11-11T16:25:52Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > IANAL, but I don’t know if you can compare the Catholic Church situation to PSU from a legal liability standpoint. > > Unlike in the Catholic situation, none of the Sandusky victims were directly connected with PSU, and much of the abuse did not take place at PSU either. Also, while this may change as other victims come forward, of the victims in the GJ report, only one post-dated the 2002 incident that was covered up (that being Victim 1, who triggered the GJ investigation). > > Which is not to say that they have no liability at all or that they won’t be pressured to make some sort of settlement. But they do seem to be in a far stronger position than the Church, and I don’t think you can extrapolate from the one to the other. > > [I would think the Second Mile charity would be in a weaker position, if in fact they were notified by PSU, but they don’t have nearly as deep pockets.] The abuse by Catholic priests (and Boy Scout leaders) didn’t have to take place on their property and much of it didn’t. The bishops were aware of bad behavior by people they employed, didn’t report it and did little to stop it. Therefore they were culpable no matter where the actions occurred. Therefore, they and their organization were liable. Time to pay up. The concept you can’t seem to grasp is “enablers”. Enablers know of a situation, don’t report it and don’t stop it. From every angle it looks like the PSU administration enabled Sandusky. Paterno was one powerful piece of that ugly administration. You are trying to parse this thing by looking a pieces of information and finding areas where not all of the information is on record. You are using those missing pieces to excuse these people. That’s not the way it works. It’s the overall picture that matters. You sound like the person that can’t make the distinction between “reasonable doubt” and “beyond a shadow of a doubt.” There is a huge difference. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/759 "2011-11-11T16:36:28Z")
> [@BrassyPhrase](#): > > Where are the people worrying about the young boys, now young men, that were injured? You didn’t miss it, and I think everyone who’s criticizing Paterno falls into the camp of people revolted, horrified at the thought of what this was like for the victims. Hence the ire at Paterno, McQueary, etc. It’s pretty much implicit in every anti-JP post. The reason it’s not explicit is (a) it hardly needs saying that it’s awful to think of what those kids went through; and (b) expressing empathy for them is almost . . . almost in the gratuitous/RO realm. I mean, what can we do but hope and pray that they made/will make it through okay, and (small consolation, but . . .) cross our fingers for them to get huge settlements as some small compensation. Similarly, someone asked me the other day, “Why are you going on about Paterno, where’s the outrage against Sandusky?” I rolled my eyes a bit. Sandusky is also a sort of RO candidate. He’s going to jail for the rest of his life unless the prosecution badly messes up – there are no plea agreements here. I mentioned upthread that in a better world, I thought he’d be summarily executed, then I mused that it might not be too bad if he killed himself. But there’'s not much more we can do, and his guilt is not arguable. Paterno’s different. We can’t save the kids now, we can’t lynch Sandusky. But Paterno was in play. Unlike with Sandusky, there was (until the other day) some real chance he’d skate for this. That’s where the meat of the debate was. No one doesn’t think about those kids and cringe, take my word for it. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/760 "2011-11-11T16:40:24Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > The abuse by Catholic priests (and Boy Scout leaders) didn’t have to take place on their property and much of it didn’t. Yeah, but it was people who were connected through the Catholic Church. The point is that you’re more liable if there’s some connection. If Sandusky found some kid elsewhere and abused him elsewhere that has little connection to PSU. If he brought that kid onto PSU and abused him there, then at least there’s some connection which could be the basis of a suit. > [@](#): > > The bishops were aware of bad behavior by people they employed, didn’t report it and did little to stop it. Therefore they were culpable no matter where the actions occurred. Therefore, they and their organization were liable. Time to pay up. Here’s the hypothetical. Guy A (a mandatory reporter) finds out that Guy B is an abuser. He does nothing, and Guy B is not exposed. Now Guy B goes on to abuse some other kid, who has zero connection to Guy A. Can that other kid sue Guy A based on the notion that had Guy A fulfilled his responsibility to report the earlier abuse he would not have been abused? I doubt if this is true. AFAIK, a lawsuit would have to be based on some legal fiduciary responsibility from Guy A to the actual kid who was abused. I don’t remember any cases of this sort WRT the Church or elsewhere. But again, IANAL. Perhaps a lawyer could comment on this. > [@](#): > > You are trying to parse this thing by looking a pieces of information and finding areas where not all of the information is on record. You are using those missing pieces to excuse these people. That’s not the way it works. It’s the overall picture that matters. You sound like the person that can’t make the distinction between “reasonable doubt” and “beyond a shadow of a doubt.” There is a huge difference. None of this has any apparent connection to anything being discussed. What in the world are you talking about? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=39)