# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/781 "2011-11-11T18:20:48Z")
Once in a while in this thread someone posts something about how Paterno was perceived as an honest, upstanding good guy and therefore couldn’t have done anything bad. I just want to say that this was also the public opinion of Russell Williams. We can’t really know what people are thinking or doing based on their open, public, day-to-day behaviour and it’s ridiculously naïve to think otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![DxZero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DxZero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DxZero)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/782 "2011-11-11T18:21:00Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > I can not stay out of this thread… > Does anyone think it is really possible that the disappearance of Gricar could be tied to this? I keep telling myself, it can’t be. But I can’t convince myself. This just grows more horrible by the minute. It was several years after the incidents so probably not. It does cause me to raise an eyebrow, though. I seem to recall reading that his brother committed suicide by jumping off a bridge so maybe depression runs in the family. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/783 "2011-11-11T18:26:25Z")
> [@Sinsaint](#): > > Okay, if PSU weren’t engaging in some type of cover up (or praying that it would just quietly go away) these are things I don’t get: > > Even if I give all these people the benefit of the doubt about not knowing the specifics of the act in 2002, they knew by the beginning of 2011 but they still allowed Sandusky on the campus. They could have easily banned him until at least the investigation was over. How do you know they were not advised by either investigators or lawyers not to do that? It would not be uncommon for prosecutors to ask material witnesses and those involved in the case to not tip off the suspect. Especially since his contact with children had been severely curtailed by this point. Let’s say Penn State decided to ban him from campus. What pretense do they give him that would not lead him to believe he was gonna be arrested soon? > [@Sinsaint](#): > > The only reason I can come up with for not banning him once they knew what the accusations were is because people might start asking questions about why he was banned. By April 2011 Joepa, Spanier, Curley and Schultz all knew exactly what the accusations were (because they were all specifically asked if they knew the accusation involved anal sex with a minor). Why was the Board of Trustees not notified right then? If they were, why did they finally just decide this week to start their own internal investigation? At the very least their investigation should have started in April. > > The whole situation screams cover up. Again, there is no reason to knowingly cover everything up, especially after all these people are interviewed on the (public) record. Even the timeline you linked to backs up the notion that most of the people involved in this case did not have a full history of the allegations made about Sandusky. As isolated incidents, many people seemed to have (unfortunately) given Sandusky the benefit of the doubt based on his reputation and history. That was clearly wrong in hindsight, but to assume it was a (vast) conscious cover-up is illogical and speculative. In short, the failure here is less about individuals, and more about institutional failings and human frailty. The indictment alleges there were at least 20 people who had direct or indirect knowledge of one or more events of sexual abuse. To think that all of these people either conspired together, or are so callous and heartless as to not try to prevent Sandusky from victimizing people is really missing the point. The evil some of you are accusing these people of is most assuredly not that common. What is more common are tons of bystanders in cases like this that were seduced into thinking the monsters before them were normal. That’s why pedophiles are successful; they can convincingly wear a mask that manages to even fool people that are close to them. in some sensed the people who are fooled by these scumbags are victims as well. Clearly not on the same scale as those that suffered the abuse, but they have been victimized as well. > [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > It’s really just the logical conclusion to the continual moral slippage that comes from deitizing college athletics and it really isn’t a coincidence that the most obvious parallel case happened within the Catholic Church. I agree with you that the deification of people in the public eye is unfortunate, but the antidote to that is not tearing them down because they fail to make all the right decisions. The point we should be trying to reach is one where we recognize that these people are mortals who have flaws and are subject to the same blind spots and failings most people are. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/784 "2011-11-11T18:52:21Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > IANAL Goes a ways toward explaining your position in this thread . . . . ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/785 "2011-11-11T18:53:50Z")
> [@SnakesCatLady](#): > > As Head Coach, I would assume (and I may very well be wrong, I know less than nothing about football) he is aware of the qualifications of his assistants. Since Sandusky was his assistant in '98 when he was warned about inappropriate behavior with children, I would think the Head Coach would be aware of that. > > If he wasn’t, he doesn’t have any business being Head Coach. Nope, for someone who doesn’t know about football, you nailed it right on the head. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/786 "2011-11-11T19:03:09Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > But the GJ indicted Curley & Schultz for perjury - for contradicting McQueary, apparently on this exact point - and not Paterno. So McQueary must have not contradicted Paterno about this. I wasn’t talking about his grand jury testimony. Paterno’s people said Wednesday and Thursday that he wanted to address the media to explain the precise terms McQueary used during their conversation in 2002. I believe the words attributed to those people - not from Paterno, but from people who evidently knew how he planned to characterize the conversation - included “fondling,” “touching”, or “horseplay.” The last one is particularly unbelievable, and I was saying I assume his lawyer told him to shut up. As for the grand jury testimony, I’m assuming for now that the way Paterno spoke about the incident may have been vague but could have been interpreted to include what McQueary says he saw. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/787 "2011-11-11T19:07:24Z")
> [@kopek](#): > > So, are they going to have to change the name of Beaver Stadium? If the first choice is “Chocolate Starfish Field,” I’m gonna hope they stick with Beaver Stadium… ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/788 "2011-11-11T19:08:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > As for the grand jury testimony, I’m assuming for now that the way Paterno spoke about the incident may have been vague but could have been interpreted to include what McQueary says he saw. The GJ seems to have pressed the other two about this detail, and I doubt if they would have let Paterno get away with being vague. ETA: if Paterno knew this detail, then he would have told it to the others, which would add to the case against them, so the GJ should have been particularly interested in this. ---
**Author:** ![Sinsaint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@Sinsaint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinsaint)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/789 "2011-11-11T19:09:35Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t think that’s reasonable. Sandusky was not going to answer these questions, and neither would they. I doubt if too many people would get seriously worked up about investigating why some long-retired guy stopped coming to the campus. Spanier had been asked back in March if he was aware that Sandusky was the subject of a GJ investigation. He said no (which can only be a lie since four other people under him had already testified) and then he himself testified the following month. The only reason he would have said no was because he was still trying to hide it. Yes, it was stupid but it’s clearly what he did. > [@](#): > > I also don’t see the whole significance of the PSU campus thing. Sandusky wasn’t any more dangerous on the PSU campus than he was elsewhere. Why is it such a big deal if he was banned then or if they waited until he was indicted? ‘Any more dangerous…’ Are you fucking serious? The PSU showers are stunt doubling as Sandusky’s personal rape room. If that isn’t dangerous enough to get someone banned from a campus these days then I don’t know what is. > [@](#): > > So you’re saying they were engaged in an effort to cover it up from the public while they knew there was a GJ investigation going on? Surely they would have realized by then that it was futile. If the GJ investigation concluded with no indictments and everyone kept their mouths shut then the cover up attempt wouldn’t have been futile. Obviously that’s what they were all hoping for. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/790 "2011-11-11T19:13:12Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > in some sensed the people who are fooled by these scumbags are victims as well. Clearly not on the same scale as those that suffered the abuse, but they have been victimized as well. Paterno is _not_ a victim here. There’s a point where “I wish I’d seen it sooner” changes to “I ignored the truth in front of my eyes”, and having someone you know and trust telling you he saw your friend raping a kid is well past that point. > [@](#): > > I agree with you that the deification of people in the public eye is unfortunate, but the antidote to that is not tearing them down because they fail to make all the right decisions. The point we should be trying to reach is one where we recognize that these people are mortals who have flaws and are subject to the same blind spots and failings most people are. Bullshit. Quit trying to downplay what they did. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/791 "2011-11-11T19:16:44Z")
> [@Sinsaint](#): > > ‘Any more dangerous…’ Are you fucking serious? The PSU showers are stunt doubling as Sandusky’s personal rape room. If that isn’t dangerous enough to get someone banned from a campus these days then I don’t know what is. He wasn’t finding these kids in the showers, he was bringing them there from elsewhere. Apparently he abused kids all over the place. When he had access to the showers he abused them there, if he didn’t he would abuse them where he was. I don’t see it. In addition, by that time he had been cut loose from any connection to the Second Mile kids, at least according to the SM people. > [@](#): > > If the GJ investigation concluded with no indictments and everyone kept their mouths shut then the cover up attempt wouldn’t have been futile. Obviously that’s what they were all hoping for. Yeah, but how likely was it that the GJ would end without any indictments? Remember, you’re the one alleging that these people knew that he was a serial abuser, and in any event the GJ was clearly onto the one case in which they knew he was guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/792 "2011-11-11T19:20:12Z")
A few random questions/observations – 1. Based on the indictment, I can see plenty of room for additional shoes dropping (apart from all the investigations and the new alleged victims). There are clearly more than eight, as someone said, molesters don’t take five year holidays. Additionally, I’d argue Sandusky and Mrs. ought to face additional charges for “urgently” attempting to contact Victim No. 7 in the weeks before his GJ testimony (Indictment, p. 21). Witness tampering, anybody? I’d want to give a good bit of attention as well to some sort of accessory before, during, and after the fact to Mrs. Sandusky. She had to know, esp. as to the creepy sleepovers, that something was really wrong with this creep. 1. Good old Joe was until the other day (Hell, may still be) on the board of trustees of Second Mile, where Sandusky was grooming his victims. We haven’t even gotten around to discussing his separate breach of fiduciary duty in that separate capacity. There’s no evidence he **ever** took up the matter in any way with responsible (non-criminal) staff at Second Mile. 2. I don’t know what the investigation, pre or post Sandusky’s arrest, included, but does anyone know if they’ve seized his P.C.? I can’t imagine there’s not a goldmine of evidence there, at the least, e-mails to victims, and possibly (pure speculation, but come on) a trove of c.p. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/793 "2011-11-11T19:27:18Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Paterno is _not_ a victim here. There’s a point where “I wish I’d seen it sooner” changes to “I ignored the truth in front of my eyes”, and having someone you know and trust telling you he saw your friend raping a kid is well past that point. I disagree. I think Paterno, amongst others, are victims. You are only assuming they are not because you chose to assume facts not in evidence, and believe rank speculation. The record states that Paterno was NOT told Sandusky was seen raping a kid. PERIOD. Just deciding to repeat it doesn’t make it true. What the indictment indicates he was told what was, in his mind, not sufficient to warrant a call to the police, but enough to warrant an investigation by people higher up than him. Was that a bad call? In hindsight yes, but it ignores the context. > [@Grumman](#): > > Bullshit. Quit trying to downplay what they did. I am not downplaying anything. I have just decided not to join the lynch mob dedicated to finding blame with everyone tangentially involved with the perpetrator. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/794 "2011-11-11T19:28:15Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > In addition, by that time he had been cut loose from any connection to the Second Mile kids, at least according to the SM people. This is something that seems a little ambiguous. Second Mile is saying that they cut ties with Sandusky in 2008. Sandusky seems to be saying that he was working with the org until more recently than that. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/795 "2011-11-11T19:40:28Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > The record states that Paterno was NOT told Sandusky was seen raping a kid. PERIOD. Just deciding to repeat it doesn’t make it true. Incorrect. McQ’s testimony is that he told JP “what he had seen.” JP’s testimony is that he was told of “sexual contact with a young boy.” McQ was more specific in testifying that he told the AD et al. “anal intercourse.” Anal intercourse is a form of “sexual contact.” The record DOES NOT state that Paterno never heard of anal rape. He may have recharacterized it (technically accurately if less helpfully) as more generic “sexual contact.” And I hope we’re not still on the tiresome “maybe McQ wasn’t sure what he saw, and he recollected (or embellished) in the time between when he told JP and when he told Curley” BS. His most detailed testimony is that he thought he heard slapping sounds like sex, then he saw the victim with his hands braced against the wall, being “subjected to anal intercourse.” Unless he was lying when he said that, there’s no question that’s what he saw. NOTHING in the indictment proves that he didn’t relate substantially those facts to JP. Nobody makes up or mis-remembers graphic, circumstantial details like those, unless they’re intentionally lying. Just stop. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/796 "2011-11-11T19:43:13Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > The record states that Paterno was NOT told Sandusky was seen raping a kid. PERIOD. Just deciding to repeat it doesn’t make it true. What the indictment indicates he was told what was, in his mind, not sufficient to warrant a call to the police, but enough to warrant an investigation by people higher up than him. Was that a bad call? In hindsight yes, but it ignores the context. “Coach, I have something to tell you.” “What’s that, son?” “Well, I saw Jerry Sandusky with a young boy, pinned against the wall, subjected to anal intercourse in the showers in the locker room.” “But, was it _rape_?” “I mean…” "Okay then, not rape! That settles it! Thank god it wasn’t rape, because then I’d definitely call the police. " ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/797 "2011-11-11T19:45:37Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > This is something that seems a little ambiguous. Second Mile is saying that they cut ties with Sandusky in 2008. Sandusky seems to be saying that he was working with the org until more recently than that. I think he was on the board until last year, and was the main fundraiser. And there was indication they knew of some of what he was doing a decade before they cut ties with him. ---
**Author:** ![Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ian_D.Bergkamp)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/798 "2011-11-11T19:48:49Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > The record states that Paterno was NOT told Sandusky was seen raping a kid. PERIOD. That’s incorrect. The grand jury presentment says that McQueary “saw a naked boy, Victim 2, whose age he estimated to be ten years old, with his hands up against the wall, being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked Sandusky” (pp. 6-7) and that he “telephoned Paterno and went to Paterno’s home, where he reported what he had seen” (p. 7). Paterno’s testimony was that he met with McQueary, then “reported to [Curley] that [McQueary] had seen Jerry Sandusky in the Lasch Building showers fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy” (p. 7). So, while the presentment is vague on exactly what McQueary told Paterno, nowhere does the record state affirmatively that Paterno was _ **not** _ told that Sandusky was raping a kid. That’s clearly going to be Paterno’s story, but it’s not clear from the record at all. ---
**Author:** ![Sinsaint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@Sinsaint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinsaint)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/799 "2011-11-11T19:50:55Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > How do you know they were not advised by either investigators or lawyers not to do that? It would not be uncommon for prosecutors to ask material witnesses and those involved in the case to not tip off the suspect. Especially since his contact with children had been severely curtailed by this point. Let’s say Penn State decided to ban him from campus. What pretense do they give him that would not lead him to believe he was gonna be arrested soon? Tip him off? Dude… I hate to break it to you but Sandusky already knew about the GJ investigation. He’s known about the allegations made against him for almost three years now. The GJ investigation wasn’t kept a secret from him. ---
**Author:** ![Sinsaint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@Sinsaint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinsaint)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/800 "2011-11-11T20:04:53Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > He wasn’t finding these kids in the showers, he was bringing them there from elsewhere. Apparently he abused kids all over the place. When he had access to the showers he abused them there, if he didn’t he would abuse them where he was. I don’t see it. > > In addition, by that time he had been cut loose from any connection to the Second Mile kids, at least according to the SM people. Okay… why is banned now? > [@](#): > > Yeah, but how likely was it that the GJ would end without any indictments? Remember, you’re the one alleging that these people knew that he was a serial abuser, and in any event the GJ was clearly onto the one case in which they knew he was guilty. Let me explain something to you… none of the witnesses were given a list of all the other witnesses. For all the PSU employees knew this had to do only with the 2002 incident where the victim is still unidentified. None of those people would have known that recent victims or past victims were testifying. If the investigation had been only about the 2002 incident they probably all thought it would be dropped since there is no victim to testify. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=41)