# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 56
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1101 "2011-11-14T18:39:17Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I’m sure that **Starving Artist** will be back in just a moment and he’ll consider what I’ve asked him and in trying to formulate a response he’ll realize that it doesn’t actually matter how McQueary told him, only that he did, and then he’ll say that he agrees with us now about Paterno’s moral responsibility. I’ve really got a good feeling about this one. You’re so cute, I just want to pinch your little cheeks. I think I’ve posted all I’m going to about this situation. There’s no use continuing to engage with people who exhibit such breathtaking intellectual and moral dishonesty as the Paterno defenders in this thread. Some good did come out of this discussion, though - I have a much larger number of posters whose posts I can disregard. That’ll save me some time. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1102 "2011-11-14T18:59:21Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Some good did come out of this discussion, though - I have a much larger number of posters whose posts I can disregard. That’ll save me some time. Don’t forget the other good that came of it as well. The outing of the emotional reactionaries. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1103 "2011-11-14T19:03:38Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Don’t forget the other good that came of it as well. The outing of the emotional reactionaries. D- Nobody ever ran home crying because someone called them a dirty emotional reactionary. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1104 "2011-11-14T19:06:14Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Don’t forget the other good that came of it as well. The outing of the emotional reactionaries. I hardly think feeling that grown men should have a better-developed sense of morality than was displayed in this situation is being emotionally reactionary. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1105 "2011-11-14T19:07:43Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Maybe the mandatory reporting rules should require all cases to be reported to the SDMB. Apparently that’s where the real experts are. Incorruptible, too. Given you had to have sexual slapping / fapping sounds explained to you because you didn’t get it doesnt exactly reflect well on your expertise here either Sparky. Oh, and since this the pit, God damn you sure are fucking idiot. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1106 "2011-11-14T19:19:27Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Maybe the mandatory reporting rules should require all cases to be reported to the SDMB. Apparently that’s where the real experts are. Incorruptible, too. You know, since this story broke, people have been discussing it all over the place; message boards, chat rooms, news story comment sections etc. People have been trying to _find out more_ and _understand what really happened_. Seems the least Paterno could have done, when someone he trusts - McQueary - tells him that someone else he trusts - Sandusky - was sexually assaulting a minor. Maybe Paterno didn’t believe it, but he sure as hell could have tried to find out the truth, if only to determine whether he ought to fire the pedophile or the guy who would lie about another guy being a pedophile.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1107 "2011-11-14T19:25:51Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > Seems the least Paterno could have done, when someone he trusts - McQueary - tells him that someone else he trusts - Sandusky - was sexually assaulting a minor. Maybe Paterno didn’t believe it, but he sure as hell could have tried to find out the truth, if only to determine whether he ought to fire the pedophile or the guy who would lie about another guy being a pedophile.:rolleyes: To clarify something, the pedophile didn’t even work for him at that point. Sandusky retired from coaching PSU in 1999. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1108 "2011-11-14T20:15:45Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > You know, since this story broke, people have been discussing it all over the place; message boards, chat rooms, news story comment sections etc. People have been trying to _find out more_ and _understand what really happened_. Other than various posters to this thread, that is. They already _know_ what happened. They know what the various players did and thought and what their motivations were. It’s true that some of these people have also been searching for more info, but not to gain understanding. Rather, to see if there are any new juicy tidbits that they can run back and excitedly post in this thread. But their minds are made up and they don’t want to be confused with the facts. > [@billfish678](#): > > Given you had to have sexual slapping / fapping sounds explained to you because you didn’t get it doesnt exactly reflect well on your expertise here either Sparky. The fact that you yourself suggested in another thread (along the lines of what I had previously posted & debated here) that [McQueary did not realize it was a rape at the time he witnessed it](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14456440#post14456440) suggests that this was just a pathetic attempt at a cheap shot, and does not reflect well on you here either. > [@](#): > > Oh, and since this the pit, God damn you sure are fucking idiot. And I love you too. Although not quite in that way … ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1109 "2011-11-14T21:26:03Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > To clarify something, the pedophile didn’t even work for him at that point. Sandusky retired from coaching PSU in 1999. Yeah, I realized that after I posted it, but didn’t care to correct it, as the point stands. Paterno had a choice to find out whether a friend who had access to his team, his staff, his students, his facilities and dozens of children outside of campus was a pedophile _or_ find out why the fuck his former star quarterback and assistant with a career and future at PSU would make such an outrageous claim and fire the assistant’s ass. He did neither, and continued to accept the presence of _both_ of these people in his life, and that’s not even getting into the opportunity to save young boys from a sexual predator. It’s mind boggling and deserves the contempt he’s receiving. And for those defending all this - you guys go on and on about the standards of evidence and reasonable doubt and all that crap… that’s for the courts to sort through and assign blame through convictions. You know how things get to the courts? _By investigating in the first fucking place!_ :smack: ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1110 "2011-11-14T21:42:28Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > . > > The fact that you yourself suggested in another thread (along the lines of what I had previously posted & debated here) that [McQueary did not realize it was a rape at the time he witnessed it](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14456440#post14456440) suggests that this was just a pathetic attempt at a cheap shot, and does not reflect well on you here either. No, because McQueary’s behaviour (particularly at the very moment of walking in on buttfuckery) is a different/seperate issue than Paterno, which is mainly what we are discussing here. I never said McQueary NEVER thought it was anal rape, I said due to shock and surprise (and some Sandusky shucking and jivving) he MAY have not thought thats what is was RIGHT FUCKING THEN (as an explaination as to why he didn’t beat the crap out of Sandusky right then and there). But it sure as hell is obvious he very quickly decided it was something pretty serious when he called his dad for advice and he and his dad went to Paterno’s home the very next morning, on the weekend non the less. Bugging big wigs at home about work shit on the weekend is by definition means some serious shit is going down (at least I think it was the weekend, I aint checking). Paterno most very likely knew some bad shit was going on IMO (and pretty much everybody else’s opinion here). How bad? Who fucking cares? Its bad enough that Paterno failed (at the very least) in a moral sense to do the right thing. For that matter, Paterno may yet find himself in a legal shithole before this all said and done. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1111 "2011-11-14T21:42:57Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Really? Yes really. Given Paterno’s position, it would have taken a conspiracy to keep him in the dark. During the 1998 police investigation, in which Sandusky admitted hugging a child in the shower and said he wished he was dead, Sandusky still worked with Paterno. In 2002 Paterno was told by McQueary that Sandusky had abused a child in the shower. The crime was never reported to police. McQueary was not questioned by the police. Instead, Sandusky was punished quietly by having his keys taken away. Again, there is no way I can see to have hidden this from Paterno. And yet, Paterno continued to encourage his players to help attract children to Sandusky’s Second Mile program. He continued to allow Sandusky to bring children to Penn State. That is how Sandusky was finding his victims. If you stop to think about this, you might be able to see where some of the anger at Paterno is coming from. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1112 "2011-11-14T22:03:33Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > Yeah, I realized that after I posted it, but didn’t care to correct it, as the point stands. By rights this should have been capitalized and bolded, as it sums up so much of the attitude in this thread. By golly, the point WILL stand, however much the facts are corrected. Make up new facts, make up rationales that don’t rely on the discredited facts, whatever it takes … > [@](#): > > And for those defending all this - you guys go on and on about the standards of evidence and reasonable doubt and all that crap… that’s for the courts to sort through and assign blame through convictions. You know how things get to the courts? _By investigating in the first fucking place!_ :smack: Actually, no, that’s not how the world works. First the participants decide whether to involve the police, then the police decide whether to involve the DA, then the DA decides whether to involve the courts. Not every incident is “for the courts to sort through and assign blame through convictions”. > [@billfish678](#): > > No, because McQueary’s behavior (particularly at the very moment of walking in on buttfuckery) is a different/seperate issue than Paterno, which is mainly what we are discussing here. I never said McQueary NEVER thought it was anal rape, I said due to shock and surprise (and some Sandusky shucking and jivving) he MAY have not thought thats what is was RIGHT FUCKING THEN (as an explaination as to why he didn’t beat the crap out of Sandusky right then and there). By odd coincidence, when I myself had previously in this thread made this exact suggestion it was also in the context of explaining McQueary’s behavior at the time, as I noted in a subsequent post. > [@](#): > > But it sure as hell is obvious he very quickly decided it was something pretty serious when he called his dad for advice and he and his dad went to Paterno’s home the very next morning, on the weekend non the less. Bugging big wigs at home about work shit on the weekend is by definition means some serious shit is going down (at least I think it was the weekend, I aint checking). A weekend? Wow, that sounds really really serious. I mean, you wouldn’t disturb someone on a weekend for any old run-of-the-mill inappropriate sexual behavior with a child, would you? Really, you’ve got to adopt a consistent position here. I’ve seen some really stupid statements made in support of your general position in this thread, but I think you’re a cut above that, and it’s hard to imagine that you really believe there is no middle ground between something not worth disturbing the boss on a weekend over and something that absolutely demands that JP follow it to the ends of the earth even after reporting it to official channels. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1113 "2011-11-14T22:13:04Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > By golly, the point WILL stand, however much the facts are corrected. Make up new facts, make up rationales that don’t rely on the discredited facts, whatever it takes … No one but you and yours have “made up rationales.” (The “McQuearey wasn’t sure about what he saw,” meme, which is fabricated from the whole cloth and has NO basis in the indictment or sworn testimony that’s been made public). What “new facts” are there after three years of investigation and the self-consistent assertions in the indictment and GJ testimony? Name a single “discredited” fact? You can’t. They are imaginary phantom Occam-unfriendly “facts” that aren’t facts because **you** don’t get to testify in a case where you want X to be true, but you weren’t there, and the people who were, have never said anything remotely resembling X. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1114 "2011-11-14T22:23:51Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > Yes really. Are we talking about the same things? Because you response seems like a non sequitur. You said the following: > [@Carmady](#): > > From what I can tell, the ones alleging an organized cover up are Paterno’s defenders. I responded: [QUOTE=Brickbacon] Really? [/QUOTE] Followed by quotes from two people who are not Paterno defenders alleging a cover up. Where is the disconnect here? Your assertion, that it seems to be only people on my side alleging a cover up, is demonstrably wrong. I fact, I personally have long argued that Paterno was NOT invovled in an elaborate cover-up, and that there was no benefit or reason for him to enter into one. > [@Carmady](#): > > Given Paterno’s position, it would have taken a conspiracy to keep him in the dark. During the 1998 police investigation, in which Sandusky admitted hugging a child in the shower and said he wished he was dead, Sandusky still worked with Paterno. What is the basis for this belief? I get that it seems liek he should have know, but that begs the question of why the issue doesn’t seem to have been raised when he testified under oath. > [@Carmady](#): > > In 2002 Paterno was told by McQueary that Sandusky had abused a child in the shower. The crime was never reported to police. McQueary was not questioned by the police. Instead, Sandusky was punished quietly by having his keys taken away. Again, there is no way I can see to have hidden this from Paterno. Of course he knew about this. He was an integral part of the story, and has testified to his actions in this case. This is not really in dispute. > [@Carmady](#): > > And yet, **Paterno continued to encourage his players to help attract children to Sandusky’s Second Mile program**. He continued to allow Sandusky to bring children to Penn State. That is how Sandusky was finding his victims. Do you have a cite for the bolded claim? > [@Carmady](#): > > If you stop to think about this, you might be able to see where some of the anger at Paterno is coming from. I have thought about it. I get the anger, I just don’t think it’s justified or helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1115 "2011-11-14T22:24:03Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > No one but you and yours have “made up rationales.” (The “McQuearey wasn’t sure about what he saw,” meme, which is fabricated from the whole cloth and has NO basis in the indictment or sworn testimony that’s been made public). It has a basis in common sense considering the circumstances of the incident, and it also has a basis in that - per the indictment - McQueary was more explicit in speaking to Curley & Schultz than he had been in speaking to Paterno a week and a half prior. It also explains McQueary’s reaction at the time. Not conclusive, to be sure. But far from “NO basis”. > [@](#): > > What “new facts” are there after three years of investigation and the self-consistent assertions in the indictment and GJ testimony? Name a single “discredited” fact? You can’t. Examples of discredited facts are that Sandusky worked for Paterno at the time, and (apparently) that McQueary told Paterno that he witnessed anal rape. These are judged to be highly significant (see e.g. the [third post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14436885&postcount=3) to this thread, and many many others) until it turns out that they aren’t true (or at least aren’t known to be true, in the second case). Then it suddenly turns out that they are not significant after all, and the position is unaffected, based on a new rationale. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1116 "2011-11-14T22:37:10Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It has a basis in common sense considering the circumstances of the incident, and it also has a basis in that - per the indictment - McQueary was more explicit in speaking to Curley & Schultz than he had been in speaking to Paterno a week and a half prior. It also explains McQueary’s reaction at the time. Your alleged “common sense” is not a fact. Your obsessive focus on the exact language that was used by McQ in talking to Paterno is bizarre. (a) you haven’t seen a transcript of Paterno’s testimony; (b) Paterno years after the fact is not obligated to be (nor necessarily motivated to be) a verbatim voice recording robot who will parrot the exact words McQ said to him at the time; (c) the Grand Jury is not required to provide verbatim characterization of the witness’s testimony in order to be plausible; (d) thus there is **no** affirmative evidence for your assertion that McQ was, definitely, “more explicit” in talking to Curley; (e) even if he used slightly different, more explicit words (eye on the ball – there’s no proof he did), there is NO inconsistency because “anal rape” is clearly and squarely a form of “sexual conduct;” (f) it doesn’t matter because EITHER description is way beyond the threshold for reportability; (g) no one in the GJ investigation qualified McQ’s testimony by saying it was hazy or that it had evolved over time, which is just the sort of question investigators can and do ask in order to gauge credibility. In short, there is no inconsistency and the material fact (one fact) that irrevocably triggered Paterno’s moral duty was a plausible allegation of “sexual contact with a minor.” You don’t seem to understand. This is not a he-said, she-said situation where there is alternative evidence that needs to be weighed against that uncontroverted, bare minimum fact. Once that fact (whatever the nature of the contact was) became clear, your idiotic, out-of-nowhere speculation about McQueary’s “uncertainty” (based solely on non-identical language in the indictment, but language that is entirely consistent) is less than worthless. You do know that there is no affirmative defense to sexual abuse of a minor, don’t you? Unless there is something to refute the central triggering allegation (“sexual contact with a minor,”) NO additional or different facts (there aren’t any here) changes the calculus. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1117 "2011-11-14T22:49:49Z")
As you concede, none of us know what was said to Paterno, but then you come back with the statement that he definitely heard “sexual contact with a minor” even though that was a summary in the grand jury report, does not quote Paterno, and is written by a prosecutor with an interest in the outcome. And it does matter. Yes, anal rape is “sexual contact with a minor” but the reverse isn’t necessarily true. You really don’t think there is a difference between “Jerry may have been doing some not quite right with the boy” and “I saw Jerry inserting his erect penis into the boy’s anus”? Again, I ask, why shouldn’t Joe have been allowed an administrative hearing? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1118 "2011-11-14T22:53:40Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Your alleged “common sense” is not a fact. I’m not sure if you mean to be technical with the word “fact”. It’s common sense. Call it a “fact” or not, as you like. > [@](#): > > Your obsessive focus on the exact language that was used by McQ in talking to Paterno is bizarre. (a) you haven’t seen a transcript of Paterno’s testimony; (b) Paterno years after the fact is not obligated to be (nor necessarily motivated to be) a verbatim voice recording robot who will parrot the exact words McQ said to him at the time; (c) the Grand Jury is not required to provide verbatim characterization of the witness’s testimony in order to be plausible; (d) thus there is **no** affirmative evidence for your assertion that McQ was, definitely, “more explicit” in talking to Curley; - (e) even if he used slightly different, more explicit words (eye on the ball – there’s no proof he did), there is NO inconsistency because “anal rape” is clearly and squarely a form of “sexual conduct;” I’ve addressed these points earlier in this thread (in a discussion with Marley). The GJ report spends considerable length on this issue in the case of Curley & Schultz (pages 8-9) and indicted Curley & Scvhultz for perjury for contradicting McQueary on this this point (see pages 12-13). It’s inconceivable that the GJ didn’t press Paterno as well about this, and it’s very unlikely that Paterno was contradicted by McQueary, or he too would have been indicted for perjury. Thus it seems that McQueary agrees that he did not tell Paterno that there was anal sex, unlike his testimony vis a vis the other two. > [@](#): > > (f) it doesn’t matter because EITHER description is way beyond the threshold for reportability; It was reported. The significance here is about whether Paterno had reason to believe there was a cover-up. > [@](#): > > (g) no one in the GJ investigation qualified McQ’s testimony by saying it was hazy or that it had evolved over time, which is just the sort of question investigators can and do ask in order to gauge credibility. I’m not sure that they always do, but even if they do, it’s probably the type of thing they leave out of GJ reports. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1119 "2011-11-14T23:02:47Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Again, I ask, why shouldn’t Joe have been allowed an administrative hearing? What is so magical about an administrative hearing? What kind of exalting bureaucracy over common sense is that obsession about? Are you a union member or something? Paterno clearly failed in his oversight of the program. End of story. On the undisputed facts, there was nothing he could have said (after he was locked into his grand jury testimony) that would have changed the conclusion that he fell far short of his professional and moral responsibilities. End of story. Do you actually watch football? Do you understand how it works? Did you think Jim Tressel got or needed an “administrative hearing” before being forced out for presiding over massive cheating? My God, these guys all live game to game. Tony Sparano is by all accounts a decent football coach and terrific human being. He’s just won two games in a row after a tremendously challenging/awful start to his season. He may win several more. And it is almost a certainty that he will be fired at the end of this season, because that’s what happens to the man in charge when something has gone badly wrong. No administrative hearing, no elaborate chin scratching as to whether the sexual abuse was really all that bad. He’ll be gone, and he’ll take it like more of a man than Paterno. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1120 "2011-11-15T00:09:36Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Are we talking about the same things? The point of the line you quoted was that it would take a conspiracy to have kept Paterno in the dark about everything that was happening essentially in his living room, therefore anyone claiming he was in the dark is alleging a conspiracy. It would not take a conspiracy for Paterno to keep his mouth shut, so whether or not anyone calls it a “cover up” is irrelevant. You are getting caught up on the term used, rather than the actions described. Has anyone described Paterno explicitly pressuring witnesses to stay silent? No. We don’t know what advice he gave McQueary, if any, and we don’t know if he told anyone he would keep quiet. What we do know is the crime was not reported to the police, McQueary was not interviewed by police, and the punishment was having Sandusky’s keys taken. Is that a “cover up” by your definition? I don’t really care. But when you have one of your coaches being investigated by the police and admitting to hugging a child in the showers and wanting to die, and being witnessed abusing another child in the showers, and the witness never being questioned, and the only punishment being the keys taken away… yeah. To keep that all from Joe in his own domain would have been an amazing conspiracy. > [@brickbacon](#): > > Of course he knew about this. He was an integral part of the story, and has testified to his actions in this case. This is not really in dispute. I was referring not only to what McQueary told him, but also to the lack of questioning of McQueary by police and the punishment of taking Sandusky’s keys away. > [@brickbacon](#): > > Do you have a cite for the bolded claim? [http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=7215524](http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=7215524) Skip to around 3:25 in this interview with a Penn State player. He says that after 2002, Paterno still let Sandusky around the football team and the players participated in Second Mile events with Sandusky. I can’t find a cite of explicit encouragement, but the interview pretty much speaks for itself as to how the players viewed helping out Second Mile. > [@brickbacon](#): > > I have thought about it. I get the anger, I just don’t think it’s justified or helpful. Sandusky was trading on the Joe Paterno name in order to sexually abuse children. He used Joe Paterno and Penn State football to make kids feel safe, and then he abused them. Second Mile hands out Penn State athlete trading cards to kids, and even after Paterno knew of the abuse he gave Sandusky the use of the football team and the campus to attract kids. That makes Joe way more involved than a random bystander who was told of abuse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=55) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=57)