# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 57
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1121 "2011-11-15T00:29:13Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > “Jerry may have been doing some not quite right with the boy” That isn’t one of the options. Either argue in good faith, or shut the fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1122 "2011-11-15T00:48:21Z")
It occurs to me that parents may not have been so trusting of leaving their kids with Sandusky, or may have been quicker to realize something was wrong, if he did not retain so much Penn State access even after Paterno knew of the abuse. The fact that he attended events with Penn State players and took the kids to the Penn State campus allowed him to glom on to the Paterno aura of respectability and to the hero worship the kids probably had for Penn State Football. It’s just disgusting to think about. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1123 "2011-11-15T01:27:30Z")
Breaking news on ESPN that Sandusky claims to just have showered with the kids, but nothing else. How ironic if he gets off, but Paterno’s legacy is permanently destroyed. Crazy shit. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1124 "2011-11-15T01:31:44Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > Breaking news on ESPN that Sandusky claims to just have showered with the kids, but nothing else. That’s apparently from an interview with Bob Costas that will air on Brian Williams’ NBC show tonight. For those with a handy supply of half-bricks and a spare TV. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1125 "2011-11-15T02:08:54Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > Breaking news on ESPN that Sandusky claims to just have showered with the kids, but nothing else. How ironic if he gets off, but Paterno’s legacy is permanently destroyed. Crazy shit. How in the WORLD does he think this makes things any better? What reason does a 60-year-old man have to shower, alone, at night, in an empty athletics building, with young boys who are not his biological children? Does he somehow think that just showering with them is going to make everybody say “Oh, well that’s TOTES acceptable!”? I’m sure he’ll answer those questions in the interview that starts in an hour, but I cannot watch, because I do not have a strong enough stomach or a calm enough disposition. That, and I’d rather watch the Packers beat the Vikings than listen to an aging pedophile diminish his own crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ian_D.Bergkamp)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1126 "2011-11-15T02:16:22Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > As you concede, none of us know what was said to Paterno, but then you come back with the statement that he definitely heard “sexual contact with a minor” even though that was a summary in the grand jury report, does not quote Paterno, and is written by a prosecutor with an interest in the outcome. This is an example of the mental contortions in which some people are engaging to defend Paterno’s inaction. The indictment summarizes Paterno’s testimony, but now we’re supposed to doubt the summary because it’s just a summary, does not use quotes, and is written by a prosecutor? Sorry, but that’s absurd. The indictment is not a motion intended to persuade. Rather, it constitutes the grand jury’s _ **findings of fact** _, based on the testimony they heard. There is absolutely no basis–none–to conclude that the author of the report skewed the facts to fit his or her “interest in the outcome.” ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1127 "2011-11-15T03:27:26Z")
Watching the interview now. Is anyone else seeing a huge red flag every time Sandusky uses the term “horsing around”. Why does that phrase keep popping up in this case? ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1128 "2011-11-15T04:15:53Z")
[**Labrador Deceiver** , just a note to let you know that you left the door wide open with that post, but I’m not going to be crass enough to take the bait-just this once.] ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1129 "2011-11-15T05:08:03Z")
_Sandusky: ‘I Shouldn’t Have Showered With Those Kids’_ You think? ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1130 "2011-11-15T05:12:18Z")
Ugh, ESPN showed a little bit of the interview after the pasting of the Vikings by the Packers, and it was not pretty. I personally think that his attorney is a drooling moron to allow Sandusky to give the interview. I found it VERY interesting that when Bob Costas flat-out asked Sandusky, “Are you a pedophile?”, Sandusky’s response was something like “well…I like spending time with children and being around children…but…not in a sexual way.” Seriously. Your first response to that question should be “Hell, no.” Not waffling around about spending time with kids. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1131 "2011-11-15T06:30:30Z")
> [@lorene](#): > > Whoa, hey. Don’t you think that’s a little— > > Oh. Never mind. > [@Huerta88](#): > > You know, he topped himself after that, I hope you noticed . . . . Bet Jerry Sandusky wishes he could learn how to do _that_. Seriously, it woulda saved him a shit-ton of trouble… ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1132 "2011-11-15T08:43:32Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > What reason does a 60-year-old man have to shower, alone, at night, in an empty athletics building, with young boys who are not his biological children? I have no idea but one thing I think is an ABSOLUTE certainty: **Starving Artist** , **brickbacon** , **Fotheringay-Phipps** or **jtgain** should be along at any moment to provide us with a totally obvious and reasonable explanation for why a 60-year-old man would find it acceptable to shower with little boys. And horse around in the nude with them. And have them fall ass first on his erect cock. Repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![wedgehed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8edcca/32.png) [@wedgehed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wedgehed)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1133 "2011-11-15T08:58:14Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > I have no idea but one thing I think is an ABSOLUTE certainty: **Starving Artist** , **brickbacon** , **Fotheringay-Phipps** or **jtgain** should be along at any moment to provide us with a totally obvious and reasonable explanation for why a 60-year-old man would find it acceptable to shower with little boys. > > And horse around in the nude with them. > > And have them fall ass first on his erect cock. > > Repeatedly. Hey! The man likes to stay clean & teach the heimlich maneuver! Since when is time management a crime? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1134 "2011-11-15T15:38:07Z")
The claim you made earlier is not supported by the link you provided. You said the following: > [@Carmady](#): > > And yet, Paterno continued to encourage his players to help attract children to Sandusky’s Second Mile program. He continued to allow Sandusky to bring children to Penn State. That is how Sandusky was finding his victims. The interviewee says nothing about Paterno or children. He states that Sandusky was definitely around, and that “anytime guys wanted to help out, do charity work, that was always an opportunity for us to go out into the community and help out.” It says nothing about Paterno suggesting they involve themselves with the charity, nor does it says ANYTHING about attracting children to Sandusky. In fact, it doesn’t make much sense that a player would know very many children that they could bring to the charity anyway. > [@Carmady](#): > > The point of the line you quoted was that it would take a conspiracy to have kept Paterno in the dark about everything that was happening essentially in his living room, therefore anyone claiming he was in the dark is alleging a conspiracy. I apologize, I missed the context of your quote. However, you are the one alleging that Paterno not knowing about certain things would necessitate a cover-up or conspiracy. There is no reason to assume that whatsoever. > [@Carmady](#): > > It would not take a conspiracy for Paterno to keep his mouth shut, so whether or not anyone calls it a “cover up” is irrelevant. It is not irrelevant because it intimates a bad motives and actions taken by people for which there is no evidence. People have repeatedly alleged that Paterno and others conspired to keep the whole thing under wraps. I on the other hand have contended that there is no proof of that, and no incentive for a number of the actors to agree with to conspire. > [@Carmady](#): > > But when you have one of your coaches being investigated by the police and admitting to hugging a child in the showers and wanting to die, and being witnessed abusing another child in the showers, and the witness never being questioned, and the only punishment being the keys taken away… yeah. To keep that all from Joe in his own domain would have been an amazing conspiracy. You are confusing two different things. The allegations in '98 which were investigated by the police resulted in no charges being filed. He subsequently retired in '99. Whether the two are related is up for debate. At the very least, it would seem that, unlike what some have claimed, the matter was not widely known publicly. Just based on the fact that several glowing [articles](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1017979/2/index.htm) were written by competent reporters after his retirement which do not mention the inquiries or a cloud of suspicion. We also have the release of Sandusky’s book, Touched, in 2001. Do you really think that would have gone over without comment if the incidents in '98 were known about publicly? Here is an article from a reporter who admits to being [fooled](http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/people+Sandusky+fooled/5710500/story.html) by Sandusky. Notice when he inquires about his retirement, he is asking whether it was consternation due to him being passed over in succession plans, not about any allegations of him showering with kids. Now, does that mean Paterno didn’t know? No, but it does give us some appreciation for the fact that the presence of the allegations was not particularly widely know. Even reporters, whose careers could be made on such a story, and thus have plenty of motivation to report on them, did not know. Second, your claim that all they did was take away his keys, was a response to the 2002 incidents which Paterno, among others, was obviously aware. By this point, he no longer worked for PS, and thus could not be fired. In hindsight, they definitely should have done more, but you understanding/presentation of the timeline is off. > [@Carmady](#): > > It occurs to me that parents may not have been so trusting of leaving their kids with Sandusky, or may have been quicker to realize something was wrong, if he did not retain so much Penn State access even after Paterno knew of the abuse. I sincerely doubt that. Plenty of abusers operate without access to college football teams. Another part of your premise that is faulty is that the parents in this case were particularly interested and involved. I don’t mean that as a claim they are culpable in any way, but to show why people who prey on kids often prey on certain kids, with a certain home life, with certain types of parents. In essence they look for easy prey, where there will be little parental oversight, giving them far more autonomy and opportunity. If you are to believe the current thread with a supposed victim of Sandusky’s, he stated he on some level preferred the company of Sandusky (despite the abuse) because of his unfortunate home life. Second Mile’s ties with PS didn’t seem to enter into the equation. > [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > I have no idea but one thing I think is an ABSOLUTE certainty: **Starving Artist** , **brickbacon** , **Fotheringay-Phipps** or **jtgain** should be along at any moment to provide us with a totally obvious and reasonable explanation for why a 60-year-old man would find it acceptable to shower with little boys. > > And horse around in the nude with them. > > And have them fall ass first on his erect cock. > > Repeatedly. Please feel free to quote me where I have ever disputed the allegations made against Sandusky, defended the actions you mentioned above, or praised Sandusky as a human being. I’ll save you some time, you won’t find anything like that at all. But don’t let the facts ruin your fun. I know how enjoyable it must be attacking that straw man, intimating I’m a pedophile, and praying for bad things to happen to me for having the temerity to question the mob. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1135 "2011-11-15T15:53:51Z")
An NY Times Op-Ed by David Brooks possibly explaining McQueary’s lack of action after seeing a kid get raped: > **[Opinion | Let’s All Feel Superior (Published 2011)](https://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/15/opinion/brooks-lets-all-feel-superior.html?src=rechp)** > > The general reaction to the Penn State atrocity has been self-righteous and dishonest. We should all take a look at our propensity to self-deceive. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1136 "2011-11-15T16:22:54Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > An NY Times Op-Ed by David Brooks possibly explaining McQueary’s lack of action after seeing a kid get raped: > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/15/opinion/brooks-lets-all-feel-superior.html?src=rechp](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/15/opinion/brooks-lets-all-feel-superior.html?src=rechp) Not what McQueary is saying now: [**Mike McQueary: ‘I made sure it stopped’**](http://www.suntimes.com/sports/8846729-419/mike-mcqueary-i-made-sure-it-stopped.html) Can’t say that I am surprised no one’s guilty in this scandal. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1137 "2011-11-15T16:39:29Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > An NY Times Op-Ed by David Brooks possibly explaining McQueary’s lack of action after seeing a kid get raped: > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/15/opinion/brooks-lets-all-feel-superior.html?src=rechp](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/15/opinion/brooks-lets-all-feel-superior.html?src=rechp) Do you disagree with the point he is making? If so, what specifically is bothersome or erroneous in your estimation? ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1138 "2011-11-15T16:59:35Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Do you disagree with the point he is making?.. Not at all. In fact, it’s pretty much what I assumed happened with McQueary. That’s why I posted it. My issue since day 1 has been with the higher-ups (especially Paterno) who sat on the information for years, knowing that there was no resolution. I used the term “possibly explaining” because it’s a theory, but we have no way knowing if it applied in this particular instance. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1139 "2011-11-15T17:04:44Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Not what McQueary is saying now: [**Mike McQueary: ‘I made sure it stopped’**](http://www.suntimes.com/sports/8846729-419/mike-mcqueary-i-made-sure-it-stopped.html) > > Can’t say that I am surprised no one’s guilty in this scandal. :rolleyes: [ESPN is reporting that according to a source familiar with the state investigation, McQueary did stop the assault](http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7235782/former-penn-state-coach-jerry-sandusky-proclaims-innocence-nbc-interview). That’s a more objective party and presumably they wouldn’t lie for McQueary. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1140 "2011-11-15T17:04:58Z")
While we might be able to point to historical behaviour and trends about how people report or react to offensive/dangerous situations, I don’t think that’s really much of an _excuse_, so much as an explanation. Doing nothing - for nine years - is still a _choice_ and it’s still a moral failing. We don’t justify other crimes, petty or not, with “well, X% of people would have done the same thing”, so while there’s an interesting discussion to be had about the brain and how it reacts to things, it’s still not enough to let someone off the hook for not doing what they could to stop a sexual predator from assaulting children. It’s true, we don’t know what we would have done in the same position as McQueary. _But_, we do know what he did (and didn’t) do - and those things were not enough. Those things were still _wrong._ Perhaps in another situation in the future, another McQueary will think twice, and make the right choice because he heard about this case - at least, we can hope. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=56) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=58)