# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/101 "2011-11-08T02:37:09Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It was explained to me upthread by a couple of posters that it was a janitor who observed the instance of oral sex and that McQueary was the one who reported the so-called anal rape. You may very well be right. I’m not certain either way. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/102 "2011-11-08T02:37:25Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I seem to have some bewilderment as to why the person who saw the accused performing the act did not call the police. > > Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Penn State athletic department did wrong, and should pay whatever price is appropriate, but for Pete’s sake, if I came across an adult having sex with a ten-year-old, I wouldn’t think, “I’d better talk to Coach,” I’d call the fucking cops. Yes. And then I sure as hell wouldn’t take a job with them for NINE YEARS and say nothing about what I’d seen. > [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > You may very well be right. I’m not certain either way. The grand jury report and the story I linked to contain the information. Are you seeing different information elsewhere? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/103 "2011-11-08T02:38:49Z")
People! Read the damn indictment! McQueary did, indeed, witness anal rape on a 10-year-old boy. The people doing all the pooh-poohing based on Paterno’s reputation should really think about what they’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/104 "2011-11-08T02:40:25Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > It’s been pointed out a few times upthread that the GA didn’t walk in on anal rape. I think he walked in on Sandusky performing oral sex on a 10-year-old. No, read the indictment, linked to in post #36. The term used on page 6 is “anal intercourse”, and the apparent age of the victim removed any question that it was rape. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/105 "2011-11-08T02:40:39Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > It’s been pointed out a few times upthread that the GA didn’t walk in on anal rape. I think he walked in on Sandusky performing oral sex on a 10-year-old. Read the grand jury testimony instead of the thread, it is explicit and has already been linked to once but here it is again: [Link](http://cbschicago.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/sandusky-grand-jury-presentment.pdf) It isn’t a PDF you can copy and paste so I had to manually type this but here is what it says (it is under the heading “Victim 2” in the PDF): > [@](#): > > As the graduate assistant entered the locker room doors, he was surprised to find the lights and showers on. He then heard rhythmic, slapping sounds. He believed the sounds to be those of sexual activity. As the graduate assistant put the sneakers in his locker, he looked into the shower. He saw a naked boy, Victim 2, whose age he estimated to be ten years old, with his hands up against the wall, being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked Sandusky. The graduate assistant was shocked but noticed that both Victim 2 and Sandusky saw him. The graduate assistant left immediately, distraught. If I had to guess, maybe part of the reason the GA (now known as McQueary) didn’t intervene is because both Sandusky and the Victim saw him. Most likely the victim wasn’t struggling or showing “obvious” signs of distress. Most likely because he had been victimized many, many times before and had tragically been conditioned to accept this abuse–this happens with real abuse victims who are subjected to serial rapes. I think that for someone like McQueary whose conception of rape is probably more in line with pop culture, he didn’t immediately process it because the boy wasn’t fighting and in fact had his hands up on the wall and seemed to just be passively taking it. Of course I’m just guessing there and McQueary’s thoughts are impossible to know. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/106 "2011-11-08T02:41:32Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > It’s been pointed out a few times upthread that the GA didn’t walk in on anal rape. I think he walked in on Sandusky performing oral sex on a 10-year-old. No idea why this showed up twice. Has the child the GA walked in on been identified yet? If not, then his discription of the event is the only one we have. That means he had to know he walked in on anal rape, since he’s the only one who could give a description of the event. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/107 "2011-11-08T02:42:38Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > No, read the indictment, linked to in post #36. The term used on page 6 is “anal intercourse”, and the apparent age of the victim removed any question that it was rape. How many more people are going to respond to this post before reading the rest of the thread? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/108 "2011-11-08T02:44:11Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Unfortunately **Starving Artist** I think you’re more or less wishing for something that just isn’t true. You really think a 28 year old guy would hear “slapping and the sounds of sex” and then see a kid pinned against a wall with an old dude thrusting at him and that’s somehow not anal rape? > > I don’t necessarily want to take this thread down an avenue that might lead to a mixture of jokes and etc because anal sex often does that, but for the sake of it needing to be said, is your understanding of anal intercourse such that you think anytime it happens the person on the receiving end is in such profound pain they can’t help but scream out in “extremely loud” volume that no one could help but hear? > > The truth of the matter is this was probably not a prison style, vicious and forceful rape in which three guys hold someone down and the victim is fighting with everything they have and their assailant is basically doing their best to inflict maximum pain and suffering. Most likely, and this is the truly horrible part, Sandusky had forced himself on this boy many, many times before. Even a 10 year old, after being forced into such a thing a few times could probably adjust in such a way that they could suffer it without screaming so loud the whole world hears it. > > I do know this, I know many cases in which male children have been raped many, many times by family members in the same house as the rest of their family and no one hears it. So I’m going to assume that it’s not like science fiction that someone, even a 10 year old, could get anally raped without making so much noise the whole facility heard it. You make a good point. If Sandusky had groomed the kid to the point where anal sex was an ongoing occurrance, then yes, it could have happened without excruciating pain like you suggest. As for the slapping souunds, who knows? Sandusky may have been actually raping the kid or merely going through the motions in a faux-playful way and trying to pass it off to the kid as teasing or rough housing. And you would think that if Sandusky had on on-going sexual relationship with the boy he wouldn’t have had to risk being seen by having sex with him in a school shower. Again, I don’t know what actually happened. But I do think too many people in this thread have forgotten the fact that they don’t really know either. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/109 "2011-11-08T02:46:27Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > How many more people are going to respond to this post before reading the rest of the thread? I’m not sure what you’re saying here. Are you still confused about what the GA said he saw? There are at least two incidents, one involving a janitor observing Sandusky perform oral sex. That resulted in a big police report a 30+ page one that I do not believe has ever been released to the media, back in 1998. Ultimately Sandusky was not charged but it now seems very likely that lead to his being “retired” in 1999. The Grand Jury is a legally constituted body that investigates facts (or at least listens while the prosecution submits facts), their report isn’t some “news report” or “random musings.” It is a summation of stuff the McQueary _personally testified to_ before the Grand Jury. There is a reason we’re saying read the grand jury report. It is not based on third hand reminiscences, but the testimony of an eye witness. Further, the grand jury goes on to say they found McQueary _very credible_ in his testimony. I’m sorry some people have gotten the facts mixed up, but **let there be no doubt** McQueary has said before a grand jury he saw Jerry Sandusky anally rape a child. That’s legal fact, now obviously it is up to a court of law to determine whether it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt the act actually occurred, but based on the best information we have now–that is what McQueary has testified to under oath. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/110 "2011-11-08T02:51:02Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Sandusky may have been actually raping the kid or merely going through the motions in a faux-playful way and trying to pass it off to the kid as teasing or rough housing. And you would think that if Sandusky had on on-going sexual relationship with the boy he wouldn’t have had to risk being seen by having sex with him in a school shower. > > Again, I don’t know what actually happened. But I do think too many people in this thread have forgotten the fact that they don’t really know either. WTF? This may be one of the most fucked up things I’ve ever read on this board. “An on-going sexual relationship”? With a 10 year old boy? “Going through the motions in a playful way”? Let’s not beat around the bush, this is not an “ongoing sexual relationship”, this is ongoing sexual abuse of a 10 year old. But, hey, as long as after your bizarre hand-waving you admit that you don’t actually know what happened. Jesus christ. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/111 "2011-11-08T02:52:36Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > How many more people are going to respond to this post before reading the rest of the thread? I had trouble getting to the end of the thread because so many of your posts (4 of them) kept repeating the wrong information and an equal or greater number of posts by others correcting you. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/112 "2011-11-08T02:52:40Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’m thinking McQueary didn’t really see what everybody here thinks he saw, and wasn’t all that sure about it himself at the time. Does it really sound plausible that a grown man raping a ten year old kid in the anus isn’t going to result in painful cries and shrieks that the kid would be incapable of holding back even if he tried, not to mention near hysterical tears and sobs afterward and an inablilty to walk or sit normally, both of which conditions you would think would draw the interest of his teachers and parents? And that the child would not be so grossed out, hurt and horrified that he wouldn’t tell someone what had happened to him? So what…McQueary is lying? It means nothing because you don’t think it works like that? > [@](#): > > My guess is that McQueary got a snapshot of some activity that wasn’t quite what he thought it was, such as Sandusky pretending to westle with the kid or trying to get his jollies from some sort of nude contact. Then when McQueary reported it to Paterno, Paterno thought it sounded implausible for the reasons I outlined above and believed that McQueary was mistaken about what he had seen but still thought that whatever was going on should be looked into so he reported it, figuring that if anything amiss had been going on it would be dealt with by the university and/or the police, if police action were deemed to be called for. As it is this thread is reminding me way too much of the Nancy Grace show. Your “guess” has problems with the actual testimony thus far. > [@](#): > > Then again I could be completely wrong, Heaven forbid. > [@](#): > > but no one here knows one way or the other. Though some people are going on the testimony that has been presented and you are just making shit up. > [@](#): > > What we do know though is that full on anal intercourse with a ten year old boy is unlikely, again for the reasons I stated; Because you’re an expert in anal intercourse? We’re supposed to give your “reasons” weight because of…go ahead and fill in a reason because I can’t think of a damn one. > [@](#): > > and that Joe Paterno has a decades-long reputation for honesty and integrity both in his personal life and on the football field. Thus I think giving him the benefit of the doubt in this particular instance is more than called for. Had. Joe Paterno “had” a reputation, and given what has been printed thus far there are more than enough reasons to call that reputation into question. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/113 "2011-11-08T02:53:13Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’m not sure what you’re saying here. Are you still confused about what the GA said he saw? There are at least two incidents, one involving a janitor observing Sandusky perform oral sex. That resulted in a big police report a 30+ page one that I do not believe has ever been released to the media, back in 1998. Ultimately Sandusky was not charged but it now seems very likely that lead to his being “retired” in 1999. > > The Grand Jury is a legally constituted body that investigates facts (or at least listens while the prosecution submits facts), their report isn’t some “news report” or “random musings.” It is a summation of stuff the McQueary _personally testified to_ before the Grand Jury. There is a reason we’re saying read the grand jury report. It is not based on third hand reminiscences, but the testimony of an eye witness. Further, the grand jury goes on to say they found McQueary _very credible_ in his testimony. I’m sorry some people have gotten the facts mixed up, but **let there be no doubt** McQueary has said before a grand jury he saw Jerry Sandusky anally rape a child. That’s legal fact, now obviously it is up to a court of law to determine whether it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt the act actually occurred, but based on the best information we have now–that is what McQueary has testified to under oath. No, that is not what I’m saying. I am saying that I initially didn’t know the specifics, acknowledged that I didn’t know the specifics, and received about 6 replies giving me the specifics. At some point, I expected the “read the grand jury” posts to stop when they noticed that several other people had addressed the point already. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/114 "2011-11-08T02:55:16Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Had. Joe Paterno “had” a reputation, and given what has been printed thus far there are more than enough reasons to call that reputation into question. And that, to me, is sad. A brilliant career tarnished (rightfully so, in my opinion, if the allegations are true) at the end by the acceptance of, if not the actual cover-up of, heinous crimes. Before everybody gets all up in my grill about that statement - I can find it sad that a brilliant career ends this way and at the same time find it revolting that children were sacrificed at the altar of football for the “good” of this program. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/115 "2011-11-08T02:57:04Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I had trouble getting to the end of the thread because so many of your posts (4 of them) kept repeating the wrong information and an equal or greater number of posts by others correcting you. I didn’t post the incorrect information 4 times. Sorry, no. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/116 "2011-11-08T02:59:39Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > The grand jury report explicitly says he saw the boy being anally raped. So, assuming McCreary is not lying now, we DO know what he saw. He also testified that he reported this to higher levels, and the two administrators are charged with perjury because they denied that they were told. > > As to the noise – if this kid had been previously raped and abused, which is certainly possible, he may already have learned that he better keep his mouth shut too. Plus, horrible as it is to contemplate, repeated abuse probably would reduce the shock and pain of subsequent abuse. Yes, I’m taking into account that McQueary is saying he reported anal rape. What I’m thinking is that Paterno and the other officials may not have believed at the time that McQueary actually saw what he thought he did, and therefore were not moved to act decisively on it. I do think that some effort should have been made to find out who the child was and see what he had to say, but I can see how the university would be reluctant to ruin a man’s professional and family life based upon what otherwise would be a he said/he said situation where it would be merely one man’s word against another. And yes, I acknowledged to **Martin Hyde** before I saw your post that in the event the abuse had been occurring previously, the rape could have happened without the pain I described. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/117 "2011-11-08T03:00:19Z")
I just don’t get what this guy was doing with a 10 year old in the locker room anyway! It’s not like the Y, I don’t think there are any programs for 10-year olds at PS. Didn’t anyone notice this old fart taking a boy in the locker room and wonder “what’s up with that”? ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/118 "2011-11-08T03:02:00Z")
> [@SnakesCatLady](#): > > I just don’t get what this guy was doing with a 10 year old in the locker room anyway! It’s not like the Y, I don’t think there are any programs for 10-year olds at PS. Didn’t anyone notice this old fart taking a boy in the locker room and wonder “what’s up with that”? I’m sure they wrote it off by thinking it had something to do with his charity work. From the reports, there were a number of red flags that were either deliberately or unconsciously ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/119 "2011-11-08T03:02:40Z")
> [@SnakesCatLady](#): > > I just don’t get what this guy was doing with a 10 year old in the locker room anyway! It’s not like the Y, I don’t think there are any programs for 10-year olds at PS. Didn’t anyone notice this old fart taking a boy in the locker room and wonder “what’s up with that”? I can’t for the life of me figure out why anyone would try to rape children in public. I can’t even grasp how fucked up that is. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/120 "2011-11-08T03:03:10Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > No, that is not what I’m saying. I am saying that I initially didn’t know the specifics, acknowledged that I didn’t know the specifics, and received about 6 replies giving me the specifics. At some point, I expected the “read the grand jury” posts to stop when they noticed that several other people had addressed the point already. Perhaps it’s because in posts 86, 92, and 96 you repeated the wrong information. and then in post #101, you admitted that you “weren’t certain”. All this despite several explicit corrections and directions to the correct information. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=7)