# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 75
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1481 "2011-12-16T21:48:31Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I’m glad he at least slammed a locker. That locker had it coming. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1482 "2011-12-16T23:02:57Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [Obligatory disclaimer: this is not to say that giving naked bear hugs to kids in showers is OK, so any dimwits who would otherwise carry on about this can spare the effort.] Even if that’s all that was reported, most people’s position is the same - that rises to the level of calling the police or following up later and making sure there is a very good explanation and that there wasn’t a pattern. As I said before, not everyone agrees and you and **SA** clearly do not, but most appear to agree. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1483 "2011-12-16T23:17:21Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > How convenient of you to leave out the sentence right before in your cite that describes McQueary hearing slapping sounds before seeing them in the shower. Also left out the word “fondling.” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1484 "2011-12-16T23:20:18Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > ```auto > Today's devleopments, courtesy of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette > http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11350/1197337-100-0.stm > > ``` Thank you for posting that. So much for McQueary being “mistaken”: “There’s no question in my mind … severe sexual acts were going on that were wrong and over the line,” he said he told Mr. Curley and Mr. Schultz. And **Starving Artist** , then what do you have to say about Schultz and Curley? ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1485 "2011-12-16T23:35:46Z")
Thanks to **Merneith** BTW for jumping on the grenade of effectively shutting down **SA** ’s latest deeply dishonest attempt to re-introduce, yet again (three weeks into this, after having been told a million times to stop inventing facts) the possibility that the conduct was “tickling or hugging but not necessarily illegal THERE’S JUST NO WAY FOR ANY OF US TO KNOW!” ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1486 "2011-12-16T23:55:54Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Here’s one example. > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14458908&postcount=980](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14458908&postcount=980) > > I’m pretty sure there were others along these lines. But one should suffice. > > Gone for the weekend. Adios for now. Yeah, I did that. I did it after seemingly exhausting every other possible explanation or motive for the persistent lying/invention of facts “maybe Paterno just heard horsing around, or putting a hand on his leg, or tickling” or just creating an entire storyline in which (based on nothing other than the failure of everyone involved to use EXACTLY THE SAME WORDS to describe a grown man clearly sexing up a young boy in a shower), this less-than-completely-verbatim-characterization-of-the-rape strongly suggested, probably in fact proved, that McQueary wasn’t sure what he saw at first, didn’t have a great angle, maybe it took him some time to evaluate it over days or weeks, and that is why he definitely told totally different stories at different times, and probably or certainly, the version he told Paterno must have been much less severe than “actual sexual abuse.” And then within the past hours you have one of the main culprits typing the following verbatim phrase: > [@](#): > > One, “something of a sexual nature” is extremely vague and could refer to something that the witness misunderstood and only thought he saw, or it could refer to a range of behavior that includes something inappropriate but not necessarily illegal, such as tickling or hugging. How can you **NOT** understand how weird and troubling it sounds to have an adult, 30 pages into this, still not grasp the fundamental fact that there is NOTHING “of a sexual nature [of course the disingenuous nitwit left out the “fondling or” which proceeded this phrase immediately]” that would not NECESSARILY be illegal, always, everytime? No, I’m certainly not going to apologize for saying that someone who’s willing to try, repeatedly, to draw distinctions between different positions or postures of touching a naked child in the shower, strongly suggesting that some are more proper than others, sure as Hell SOUNDS like a pedophile apologist, or, well, a pedophile. If you don’t want people to say you SOUND like a pedophile, stop saying things that only a pedophile would say, such as “sexual conduct with a child . . . but not the illegal kind.” ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1487 "2011-12-17T00:52:44Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Incorrect. > > 1. There is no acceptable amount of sexual contact permissible between an adult and a child. That’s right, but there is conduct that can be misconstrued as sexual contact between an adult and a child, and responsible people don’t fly off the handle and assume the worst based on nothing more than a vague assertion along the lines that “something of a sexual nature” was going on. The fact that the scene was described in that way shows that McQueary clearly wasn’t certain of what he saw. Look at it this way: suppose a woman called the police and said she wanted to file charges against someone because he had “done something of a sexual nature” to her and she wanted him arrested for rape. Don’t you think the police would expect her to be more than a little specific about what was done, and want a little more detail, than that? If a person can only describe what they saw in vague terms, then it leaves a lot of room for doubt as to just what it was that they actually saw. > [@Merneith](#): > > 1. it is not Paterno’s job to determine the seriousness of Sandusky’s behavior. > > Therefore, Paterno’s only acceptable response would have been to contact those whose job it is to investigate Sandusky’s behavior after he was informed something sexual occured between Sandusky and a child. Which he did. The law requires accusations or suspicions of on-campus criminal behavior to be reported to university authorities. To do so has been longstanding practice and I’m sure it has occurred so much that it has become automatic. For those reasons I doubt that it ever even occurred to Paterno to call the municipal police. > [@Merneith](#): > > It actually doesn’t matter what McQueary saw or what his exact words to Paterno were. Once Paterno was told something (anything!) sexual occured - and by his sworn testimony we know that he was told this - then he should have called the proper authorities. Which he did. The fact that you don’t like it or you think he should have done more or you question his motives in doing so doesn’t prove he acted inappropriately at all. He did what the law and years of practice led him to believe was the right thing to do. All the hysteria over why he didn’t go to the police is misplaced and wrong-headed. > [@Merneith](#): > > And I’ve already pointed that this “alternative version” is a story being floated by an anonymous source. The “One of the first guys” who supposedly heard McQueary’s story, which you’re refering to, family friend Jonathon Dranov, is not mentioned in the Grand Jury testimony and has refused to comment or confirm this anonymous source’s version of events. I already said that I would retract that particular reference if it proved errroneous, which **Fotheringay-Phipps** , the poster who originally posted it, has already explained was not an update but an unsubstantiated statement supposedly made by McQueary to a friend. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1488 "2011-12-17T00:54:02Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > He’s as full of shit on this as he and **SA** are on the topic generally. It isn’t there, and if it is, quote it. Otherwise, no one will believe you because you’ve both shown yourselves to be hysterical liars. Kindly cite our hysterical lies. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1489 "2011-12-17T01:07:27Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > And here we are, 30 pages later, with the point of the thread (not that we haven’t made it before). Paterno knew sexual contact between an adult and a minor had occurred. He had a moral obligation to do more than he did. He failed that moral obligation. No he didn’t. He only knew that something had occurred which the eyewitness wasn’t even sure of and very well may not even have been sexual contact. So he turned it over to the proper authorities to investigate, thinking I’m sure that they would seek charges if their investigation uncovered actual evidence that a crime had occurred. I think both sides of this issue have been stated roughly 500 times by now, and stating it over and over again does not make it any more or less true. It is what it is, and what it is is that Paterno received a questionable report of something that might have been sexual activity involving a child and so he turned it over to the authorities as he believed proper for the reasons I stated to **Merneith** just above, and to date there has not been a shred of evidence that Paterno had ulterior motives in doing so. This means at the worst he made an error of judgement (which is not to say I think he did) and does not deserve the excoriation he has come in for as a result. People like you are hammering him out of suspicion of evil intent, let’s be honest about that, and again there is not a shred of evidence thus far to show that you are correct. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1490 "2011-12-17T01:17:50Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Thank you for posting that. So much for McQueary being “mistaken”: > > “There’s no question in my mind … severe sexual acts were going on that were wrong and over the line,” he said he told Mr. Curley and Mr. Schultz. > > And **Starving Artist** , then what do you have to say about Schultz and Curley? I have to say that they must have wondered why, if McQueary indeed saw "severe sexual acts that were wrong, and, curiously, “over the line” (as though some severe sexual acts involving children are not over the line), he was unable to describe just what those sexual acts were. Suspicions are not facts, and Schultz and Curley, like the police themselves, have to deal in facts. And the fact that McQueary couldn’t even describe what sex act was going on leaves lots of room to wonder if perhaps he might just be misinterpreting or misunderstanding whatever it was he saw. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1491 "2011-12-17T01:18:24Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Here’s one example. > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14458908&postcount=980](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14458908&postcount=980) > > I’m pretty sure there were others along these lines. But one should suffice. > > Gone for the weekend. Adios for now. Hm. I dunno. I don’t think that says what you think it says. I mean, it implies it, but we should wait for all the facts to come out, don’t you think? Wouldn’t want to rush to judgment. Besides, **Starving Artist** deserved it. Act like a fucking wannabe pedo, people notice. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1492 "2011-12-17T01:24:29Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I have to say that they must have wondered why, if McQueary indeed saw "severe sexual acts that were wrong, and, curiously, “over the line” (as though some severe sexual acts involving children are not over the line), he was unable to describe just what those sexual acts were. > > Suspicions are not facts, and Schultz and Curley, like the police themselves, have to deal in facts. And the fact that McQueary couldn’t even describe what sex act was going on leaves lots of room to wonder if perhaps he might just be misinterpreting or misunderstanding whatever it was he saw. WHAT FUCKING DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE??? I give up. You are bound and determined to excuse all of this, and hand wave it away, as “mistaken”, and probably just a “misunderstanding”. Despite the fact that they fucking SHOULD have investigated it. The fact is, he saw _Sandusky naked, in the shower, in the evening, alone, with a strange boy_. That, in and of itself, is inappropriate. Goddammit, how thick can you get? So McQueary did his duty. Then Paterno did his. Okay, fine. But okay, then Curley and Schultz also did nothing wrong? If that was your child, you wouldn’t have a problem with it? If YOU were that child, how would you have felt? Jesus Christ. You ARE a pedophile appologist. Or at the very least, an enabler. I wonder what would have happened had YOU been Paterno. Or McQueary. “There are none so blind” and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1493 "2011-12-17T01:35:27Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Thanks to **Merneith** BTW for jumping on the grenade of effectively shutting down **SA** ’s latest deeply dishonest attempt to re-introduce, yet again (three weeks into this, after having been told a million times to stop inventing facts) the possibility that the conduct was “tickling or hugging but not necessarily illegal THERE’S JUST NO WAY FOR ANY OF US TO KNOW!” I hate to tell you this, but at this point there is no way for any of us to know. All we know with regard to the alleged anal rape scenario is that one guy saw something that he can only describe in vague terms. A strong case for anal rape this does not make. Like it or not, tickling, hugging, wrestling, or “lessons in showering” all remain within the realm of possibility. And until the time comes that a court finds sufficient evidence to convict Sandusky of anal rape in this case they will remain within the realm of possibility. As for me “inventing facts”, kindly cite the invented facts. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1494 "2011-12-17T01:42:05Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Besides, **Starving Artist** deserved it. Act like a fucking wannabe pedo, people notice. Really? Really, you stupid, insipid, insane dingbat? Kindly cite the posts I’ve made showing I’m a wannabe pedophile. Thank you. (Psst… **Enderw24**. Here you go! A brand new example of how **SA** defense of Paterno = wannable pedophile.) :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1495 "2011-12-17T01:42:50Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > …Like it or not, tickling, hugging, wrestling, or “lessons in showering” all remain within the realm of possibility… Again, even if that’s all that was reported, most people’s position is the same - that rises to the level of calling the police or following up later and making sure there is a very good explanation and that there wasn’t a pattern. Not everyone agrees and you and **F-P** clearly do not, but most appear to agree. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1496 "2011-12-17T01:51:56Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > WHAT FUCKING DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE??? > > I give up. You are bound and determined to excuse all of this, and hand wave it away, as “mistaken”, and probably just a “misunderstanding”. Despite the fact that they fucking SHOULD have investigated it. The fact is, he saw _Sandusky naked, in the shower, in the evening, alone, with a strange boy_. That, in and of itself, is inappropriate. Goddammit, how thick can you get? > > So McQueary did his duty. Then Paterno did his. Okay, fine. But okay, then Curley and Schultz also did nothing wrong? > > If that was your child, you wouldn’t have a problem with it? If YOU were that child, how would you have felt? > > Jesus Christ. You ARE a pedophile appologist. Or at the very least, an enabler. I wonder what would have happened had YOU been Paterno. Or McQueary. > “There are none so blind” and all that. Dear **Guin** , I’m excusing nothing. I’m handwaving away nothing. I don’t know what happened. Neither do you. Unless I’ve apologized or defended a pedophile - which I haven’t and you can’t prove I have - I am not a pedophile apologist. Unless a child somewhere has been assaulted because of something I’ve done to facilitate it - which I haven’t done and you can’t prove I have - I’m not a pedophile enabler. Words have meaning! Work on that, would you? Yours truly, **SA** ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1497 "2011-12-17T01:59:05Z")
Hey, here’s another!! **STARVING ARTIST** IS A PEDOPHILE APOLOGIST, A PEDOPHILE ENABLER, AND QUITE POSSIBLY A PEDOPHILE HIMSELF. HE THINKS IT’S OK TO SHOWER NAKED WITH LITTLE BOYS, AS LONG AS YOUR DICK DOESN’T ACTUALLY GO UP THEIR BUTT. CALLING THE COPS ISN’T NECESSARY TO **STARVING ARTIST**! GO AHEAD AND DO SOME NAKED SHOWER HUGGING!! **STARVING ARTIST** SAYS IT’S A-OK! There you go, **Enderw24**! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1498 "2011-12-17T02:09:35Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > Again, even if that’s all that was reported, most people’s position is the same - that rises to the level of calling the police or following up later and making sure there is a very good explanation and that there wasn’t a pattern. > > Not everyone agrees and you and **F-P** clearly do not, but most appear to agree. Sure they agree. I don’t because I’m familiar with the horseplay that goes on locker rooms. Towel-popping, wrestling, teasing, chasing, etc. are commonplace (or at least they were when I was in school). Thus I don’t believe that every instance of physical contact with a child in a locker room automatically rises to sexual child abuse. Now, am I convinced that Sandusky was only horsing around with the kid and McQueary misunderstood what he saw? No. I simply don’t know what happened. And now I’ve got Christmas shopping to do, and once I can manage to stop laughing at **lizzie borden** , I’m out the door. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1499 "2011-12-17T02:23:36Z")
Give it up, guys. **Starving Artist** is bound and determinded to believe what wants, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Despite the facts that have been reported that directly contradict what he believes. It’s pointless. ---
**Author:** ![PandaBear77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@PandaBear77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PandaBear77)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1500 "2011-12-17T02:28:36Z")
Slight hijack time … Since it’s now officially established in a court of law that Paterno is a piece of shit who sat idly by and did nothing while Sandusky was raping kids, could the football team be stripped of some of their championship titles because of it? Just curious, I know nothing about football and how stuff like this works. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=74) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=76)