# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 87
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1721 "2011-12-20T22:44:28Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Oh, yeah, I see it. I just think it’s hilarious that I’m the scum here. I mean, god forbid I call out this bullshit with strong language _on a message board_!!! :eek::eek::eek: To be fair, IIRC the “scum” was about me saying his excuses for Paterno sounded exactly like excuses a pedo would use, and you cutting to the chase/yanking his chain by conluding that he was using them to excuse his own conduct, which none of us really know, except that it sounds **really** creepy for people to embrace terms like “nonsexual fondling” or “sexual conduct with a child, not necessarily criminal.” A person who tosses around such jargon, even if he’s never touched a child inappropriately (statistically, odds are that people who use such odd rationalizations probably **have** , but let’s imagine a world in which he didn’t) is a creepy weirdo and deserves it if they get called names (the name calling is not the basis of your argument but rather the justified result of it). ---
**Author:** ![AustinJane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df788c/32.png) [@AustinJane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AustinJane)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1722 "2011-12-20T22:46:00Z")
> [@](#): > > What is fair and just is what should win out, and reflexively ruining people’s lives on the merest of suspicion is neither fair nor just. I have noticed this is one of SA’s repeated concerns…makes me wonder why. Protest too much? ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1723 "2011-12-20T22:51:28Z")
> [@AustinJane](#): > > I have noticed this is one of SA’s repeated concerns…makes me wonder why. Protest too much? Could be that, could be he’s never met a mischaracterization of the actual facts/issues under debate that he didn’t immediately fall in love with (see “reflexively,” “ruining,” “merest of suspicion”) vs. the only facts that are true and operative in this post/discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1724 "2011-12-20T23:06:46Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Right, like most high-risk systems, the concept of redundancies is highly relevant. Pilot’s an experienced expert? Great. As the co-pilot, that doesn’t mean that I just check out and take a snooze, or turn the autopilot off, or ignore air traffic control. Everyone who can have useful input that might more surely bring about the desired goal (plane not crashing, children not continuing to be raped) needs to be vigilant and speak up when speaking up could do some incremental good. > > **elizabeth** , he paints himself into these corners by taking (implicit) positions that are untenable and inconsistent with the relevant facts (“what if it was just tickling?”) then after repeating them multiple times, is reduced to admitting and embracing the absurdities this leads to. It took me 20 pages to get him to come out and say he thought that there were some forms of “fondling” children that were not criminal in nature. He’s still (if I recall correctly) refusing to answer (or maybe has answered) the very simple “is there any type of sexual contact with a child” that need not (morally speaking) be reported to the police and pursued vigorously, even though his stated positions and his boyfriend Paterno’s own testimony lead ineluctably to the fact that this is the position he’s defending. > > He’s also a pathological liar and introducer of red herrings (tickling, unreliable and vague reports by a third party, horseplay, mere suspicion of child abuse, Hollywood sex scandals) that are at best hijacks, at worst disingenuous trickery, which doesn’t help. 1. I didn’t say “What if it was just tickling?” 2. Of course there are forms of fondling that are not criminal in nature. To wit, from [Merriam-Webster Online](http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/fondle) (note that this is from the “Learner’s” section of the website): \*fon·dle Listen to audio/ˈfɑ:ndl̟/ verb fon·dles; fon·dled; fon·dling [+ obj] 1 : to touch or handle (something) in a gentle way ▪ fondle a coin ▪ She fondled [=caressed] the dog’s ear. 2 : to touch (someone) in a sexual way ▪ She claims that her boss tried to fondle her at the office Christmas party.\* Adults touch children in gentle ways all the time. They also touch children in ways that are intended to encourage them, reassure them, motivate them, sympathize with them, etc. It would behoove you (and Jack Batty for that matter) to learn the proper meaning of words if you’re going to use them to try to set traps for people. 1. Certainly sexual contact with a child should be reported to the police. This is different than saying that merely supposed sexual contact with a child should be reported to the police, as my post to **Rubystreak** among others clearly explains. Etc., etc., etc. > [@AustinJane](#): > > I have noticed this is one of SA’s repeated concerns…makes me wonder why. Protest too much? Ah, and here we have a perfect example of the Nancy Grace/witchhunt/lynch mob mentality. What better evidence of pedophilia exists than concern with fairness and justice? Why, the mere mention of the words point to **SA’s** guilt, because clearly if he wasn’t guilty he wouldn’t need to worry about such things as being fair and just. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1725 "2011-12-20T23:19:47Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > 1. I didn’t say “What if it was just tickling?” > > 2. Of course there are forms of fondling that are not criminal in nature. To wit, from [Merriam-Webster Online](http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/fondle) (note that this is from the “Learner’s” section of the website): > > \*fon·dle Listen to audio/ˈfɑ:ndl̟/ verb > > fon·dles; fon·dled; fon·dling > > [+ obj] 1 : to touch or handle (something) in a gentle way > > ▪ fondle a coin ▪ She fondled [=caressed] the dog’s ear. > > 2 : to touch (someone) in a sexual way > > ▪ She claims that her boss tried to fondle her at the office Christmas party.\* > > Adults touch children in gentle ways all the time. They also touch children in ways that are intended to encourage them, reassure them, motivate them, sympathize with them, etc. It would behoove you (and Jack Batty for that matter) to learn the proper meaning of words if you’re going to use them to try to set traps for people. > > 1. Certainly sexual contact with a child should be reported to the police. This is different than saying that merely supposed sexual contact with a child should be reported to the police, as my post to **Rubystreak** among others clearly explains. > _snip_ **Starving Artist** , you’re doing it again. This was NOT “supposed sexual contact”. This was a grown man, naked, with a little boy, also naked, pushed up against the wall of a deserted locker room. This was NOT horseplay. This was NOT “teaching hygiene”. There is no way this can be seen as other than sexual. As I have said before, if proper procedure had been followed the child could have been identified. If the child said it was just “horseplay”, then ok. THIS LITTLE BOY WAS NOT GIVEN THAT CHANCE. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1726 "2011-12-20T23:26:44Z")
> [@SnakesCatLady](#): > > **Starving Artist** , you’re doing it again. This was NOT “supposed sexual contact”. This was a grown man, naked, with a little boy, also naked, pushed up against the wall of a deserted locker room. This was NOT horseplay. This was NOT “teaching hygiene”. There is no way this can be seen as other than sexual. Have we ruled out the Heimlich Maneuver? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1727 "2011-12-20T23:26:46Z")
> [@SnakesCatLady](#): > > Starving Artist, you’re doing it again. This was NOT “supposed sexual contact”. This was a grown man, naked, with a little boy, also naked, pushed up against the wall of a deserted locker room. This was NOT horseplay. This was NOT “teaching hygiene”. There is no way this can be seen as other than sexual. > > As I have said before, if proper procedure had been followed the child could have been identified. If the child said it was just “horseplay”, then ok. THIS LITTLE BOY WAS NOT GIVEN THAT CHANCE. The key issue that you and **Huerta** can’t seem to wrap your heads around is that… _ **PATERNO WASN’T TOLD ANYTHING ABOUT ALL THAT!!!** _ So he didn’t know anything about any of that stuff! How many times does this have to be said? ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1728 "2011-12-20T23:33:20Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > [+ obj] 1 : to touch or handle (something) in a gentle way > > ▪ fondle a coin ▪ She fondled [=caressed] the dog’s ear. > > 2 : to touch (someone) in a sexual way > > ▪ She claims that her boss tried to fondle her at the office Christmas party.\* **No one** has ever used, spoken, heard, or understand “fondle” to mean your meaning 1 in the context of a report of “fondling” as to a naked man doing something to a naked child, especially when coupled immediately with the phrase “sexual contact.” The disingenuous part is when you imply that Paterno could morally not take further action because he could assume it was just “nonsexual fondling,” relying on a definition that everyone knows has no relevance here. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1729 "2011-12-20T23:36:12Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Oh, yeah, I see it. I just think it’s hilarious that I’m the scum here. I mean, god forbid I call out this bullshit with strong language _on a message board_!!! :eek::eek::eek: > > But outright stating that calling the police is WRONG when you see a grown man buttfucking a kid in a shower alone at night? Eh. Not that bad. > > Gotta love the dope! You are most definitely scum, miss elizabeth. I won’t bother digging up the quotes as I have to go Christmas shopping, but in this very thread you accused Jerry Sandusky of being a pedophile! How dare you make such an irresponsible accusation and potentially ruin this good man’s life when you have NO _evidence_.. Allegations of child sex abuse ruin people’s lives and ruin their families’ lives…including those of their children. The rules of evidence dictate that if you can’t produce a photograph (time and date stamped) of Jerry Sundusky’s penis penetrating a 10 year old boy’s anus, then your accusations are nothing but ad hominem insults, the last refuge of a man without an arguement. As Starving Artist has so convincingly proved, the obvious explanation for this so called eye-witness’s account, is that Jerry was simply giving the boy a naked bear hug and lessons in showering. I guess in these times of Nancy Grace induced pedophilia hysteria, no good deed goes unpunished. Being the age he is and having come from the era he came from, he was more or less in the dark that some loon might jump to erroneous conclusions about such innocent behavior. I hope you’ve learned a lesson here and the next time you see Uncle SA wrestling naked with your 10 year old nephew you don’t go running off to the cops all willy-nilly and ruining someone’s life just at the merest hint of something that MIGHT seem suspicious to your sick mind. What is fair and just is what should win out, and reflexively ruining people’s lives on the merest of suspicion is neither fair nor just. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1730 "2011-12-20T23:36:24Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Have we ruled out the Heimlich Maneuver? This thread is one long Heimlich maneuver. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1731 "2011-12-20T23:43:42Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The key issue that you and **Huerta** can’t seem to wrap your heads around is that… > > _ **PATERNO WASN’T TOLD ANYTHING ABOUT ALL THAT!!!** _ > > So he didn’t know anything about any of that stuff! How many times does this have to be said? None, since McQueary just confirmed under oath that it is not true. > [@](#): > > “I described it was extremely sexual and that some kind of **intercourse** was going on,” the assistant coach, Mike McQueary, testified of the suspected assault by Sandusky, a longtime top assistant to Paterno. “There’s no question in my mind that I conveyed to them that I saw Jerry in the showers, and that it was **severe sexual acts** , and that it was wrong and over the line.” > **[Penn State’s McQueary Tells Court What He Saw (Published 2011)](https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/17/sports/ncaafootball/mcqueary-testifies-about-sandusky-assault.html)** > > The assistant coach Mike McQueary testified that he witnessed Jerry Sandusky sexually assaulting a boy, and that he explicitly told Joe Paterno and senior Penn State officials about it. Which is entirely consistent with Paterno’s (possibly more limited, possibly more self serving) sworn statement that McQ. told him of “sexual conduct.” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1732 "2011-12-20T23:47:44Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Let me be very, very clear: if you think someone even MIGHT be doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy YOU CALL THE POLICE. YOU don’t try to “interpret” it. That is NOT YOUR JOB. The police will deal with it. > > I REPEAT, for the cheap seats: if you think someone is doing any naked fondling? Or something even vaguely sexual? YOU CALL THE POLICE. I don’t care if the guy who might have done it has been your friends for 30 years. I don’t care if you’re not sure. YOU CALL THE POLICE. It’s sad when [_The Onion_](http://www.theonion.com/articles/nations-10yearold-boys-if-you-see-someone-raping-u,26724/) makes more sense than **Starving Artist**. Hell, forget Paterno, I’d say McQueary dropped the ball as well – he was the eye witness. **Starving Artist** seems to be excusing EVERYONE in the chain. Jesus wept. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1733 "2011-12-20T23:55:49Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > It’s sad when [_The Onion_](http://www.theonion.com/articles/nations-10yearold-boys-if-you-see-someone-raping-u,26724/) makes more sense than **Starving Artist**. > > Hell, forget Paterno, I’d say McQueary dropped the ball as well – he was the eye witness. **Starving Artist** seems to be excusing EVERYONE in the chain. Jesus wept. It seems that Starving Artist is the only one who understands who [the real victim](http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/sports-media-asks-molestation-victims-what-this-me,26609/) is in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1734 "2011-12-20T23:56:29Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > **No one** has ever used, spoken, heard, or understand “fondle” to mean your meaning 1 in the context of a report of “fondling” as to a naked man doing something to a naked child, especially when coupled immediately with the phrase “sexual contact.” The disingenuous part is when you imply that Paterno could morally not take further action because he could assume it was just “nonsexual fondling,” relying on a definition that everyone knows has no relevance here. No, I didn’t say he “could” assume it was nonsexual fondling, I said he might have legitimately questioned whether it was sexual fondling in the first place. Most people who observe sexual fondling can describe what they saw in exact detail. The fact the McQueary’s statement was so vague as to the specific nature of the fondling is what made the idea questionable from Paterno’s perspective. Do you think anyone would be convicted in court on such scant evidence? Prosecutor: Tell us again what you saw that night in the locker room, Mr. McQueary? McQueary: Well, uh, I saw coach Sandusky with what appeared to be a ten year old boy and he was fondling the boy in a sexual manner. Prosecutor: Can you tell us what you mean by “fondling”? McQueary: Well, it was sexual. Prosecutor: And how did you know it was sexual? McQueary: Because it was fondling. Prosecutor: Very well. Your honor, I rest my case. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1735 "2011-12-20T23:59:09Z")
Did you even read the grand jury testimony? Because it is available, and it HAS been linked. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1736 "2011-12-21T00:01:40Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > _ **PATERNO WASN’T TOLD ANYTHING ABOUT ALL THAT!!!** _ > > So he didn’t know anything about any of that stuff! You’ve been asked before where you are getting this idea from. You might stop to consider why you are unable to answer. What we know for sure is that Paterno says he was told of something of a sexual nature between an adult and child in the locker room shower at night, and McQueary agrees with him, adding that he told Paterno of “severe” sexual acts. However, the testimony we have does not give us a full account of what was said, so your statement here is ridiculous. That doesn’t mean McQueary didn’t go into more details. I doubt he simply said “I saw Sandusky doing severe sexual acts to a child.” And even if he had, Paterno could have asked for clarification if he thought what was described as sexual acts with a child might be innocent. I believe Paterno had a moral responsibility to do more, including seeking clarification if he was confused. Paterno was confronted with an account of sexual abuse of a child by a witness he trusted enough to continue to work with for years afterward. He failed the moral test. He didn’t call the police. Even more, he allowed Sandusky to continue using Penn State to find his child victims: he got his victims at camps held at Penn State. He was seen bringing kids to Penn State practices after Paterno was told what happened, and Paterno never followed up. It was a very uncomfortable situation, we all realize that. If it wasn’t, it wouldn’t be a moral test. It would be a moral cakewalk. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1737 "2011-12-21T00:08:22Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, I didn’t say he “could” assume it was nonsexual fondling, I said he might have legitimately questioned whether it was sexual fondling in the first place. I think that if has legitimately questioned, he might not be in the mess that he is in. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1738 "2011-12-21T00:09:27Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, you’re the one who’s been trying to hang his hat on the fact that Paterno heard the words like “sexual nature” and didn’t instantly accept it as incontrovertible fact. OK, I’ll bite. What would you do if you found out a close friend was using YOU and your treasured sports team as a way of grooming boys for sex abuse? Can we assume that Paterno believed McQueary that inappropriate behavior was witnessed? Can we also assume that Paterno didn’t confront Sandusky in any way, or prevent future such behavior? I’m not sure on what planet that is OK. > [@](#): > > No you don’t. Allegations of child sex abuse ruin people’s lives and ruin their families’ lives…including those of \*their \*children…even if innocent. I urge you to look up statistics on unreported sex abuse v. wrongful accusations of sex abuse. The fact is, far more children are abused who never get justice than men are wrongfully accused. The problem with what you are saying is that I have never once heard you acknowledge that CHILD SEX ABUSE ruins people’s lives. It thrives in cultures where people are more concerned about the reputation of the adult than in the safety of the children, and frankly that is exactly how you are coming off. > [@](#): > > So no, you damn well don’t go running off willy-nilly ruining people’s lives just because they MIGHT have done something of a sexual nature to a child. Of course you don’t run off willy-nilly. You calmly go to the phone and dial when someone you trust, a person who was not prone to hysteria, a person who is quite familiar with what is normal in a football locker room, comes to you very upset by inappropriate behavior between an adult and a child. That is not willy-nilly. In fact, it would have saved a lot of people a lot of suffering. > [@](#): > > You remind me of the sort of person who insists that because rape is so onerous to women that no woman would ever lie about it, so therefore any allegation of rape by a woman is proof that the rape occurred. Well, that’s just really unfair of you. I have been nothing BUT fair to you in this conversation, so I wish you wouldn’t make statements like this. But, honestly? This wasn’t a situation where any victim accused anyone. This is an EYE WITNESS, one who has ZERO reason to make shit up and EVERY reason to interpret the situation in the least inflammatory way STILL claims to see sex abuse. So again, your comparison is null and void. > [@](#): > > There are lots of reasons why dishonest or mistaken accusations can be made of child sex abuse, and if we have any sense of fair play (which frankly, I have little hope of considering most of the posters to this thread) and justice, we don’t reflexively take action that we know will ruin people lives just because they “might” be guilty. BUT THAT’S NOT WHAT HAPPENED HERE. So your general statements about this are also irrelevant. Paterno had no reason to doubt McQueary’s assessment of the situation. McQueary was one of them. > [@](#): > > So no, YOU’RE WRONG!!! Ahem. NO U. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > As I said just above, **Ruby** , I think you’re wrong in advocating a burnt ground approach to the merest hint of child sex abuse. Don’t put words in my mouth. This is the second time, and it’s dishonest debating. This was not the merest hint. This was a reliable witness saying he saw sex abuse. You should ALWAYS CALL THE POLICE in that situation. > [@](#): > > People have lost their minds on this issue and are far too prone to see sex abuse where none exists. 1. How often do you really think that happens? Truly? Do you think it’s fun for children to have to say that someone molested them and go through all the craziness of that? I guarantee you there are a vanishingly small number of incidents of children wrongfully alleging sex abuse. 2. No children were involved in reporting this incident. McQueary reported it. So there was ZERO chance that this was a wrongful accusation. 3. There WAS sex abuse in this situation… so the police should have been called, obviously. 4. Merely calling the police does not lead to an arrest. It leads to an investigation. That would have been fully warranted in this situation. > [@](#): > > So I think a more reasoned approach is not only called for but necessary. Yes, we need to protect women and children from sex abuse because they are weaker than their abusers, but that does not mean that we should therefore throw caution to the wind and cavalierly ruin people’s lives simply because the alleged victim is vulnerability. What is fair and just is what should win out, and reflexively ruining people’s lives on the merest of suspicion is neither fair nor just. Guess what? What’s fair and just DID NOT HAPPEN. And it DID NOT HAPPEN in part because of Joe Paterno. > [@](#): > > Now, having said that, and despite your acknowledged distaste for the nature of things around here, I’m glad to see that this thread has lured you back, for a short time at least. I’ve thought about you from time to time and wondered how you’re doing. I’m a working mom, so I am pretty busy. I hope you’re well too-- despite the fact that you are a total loon, I remain fond of your crazy ass 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1739 "2011-12-21T00:26:35Z")
Lemme bottom line this, Starving Artist: it really seems like you are much more concerned about someone wrongfully accusing Sandusky than in investigating and exposing child sex abuse. That is morally wrong, and I hope you realize it. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1740 "2011-12-21T00:28:19Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, I didn’t say he “could” assume it was nonsexual fondling, I said he might have legitimately questioned whether it was sexual fondling in the first place. If McQ. had not immediately in the next breath say “sexual contact” (to foolishly take you up on your fundamentally dishonest pretense that anyone could reasonably question whether “fondling” of a naked boy by a naked man was the sexual variety of “fondling” vs. the nonsexual usage of “fondling” (which no one in fact uses, and your dishonest ass knows that full well)). And then McQ. went on (he testified) to tell Paterno he saw “extreme” sexual contact and “a form of intercourse.” NO ONE here – including you – believes that there is the REMOTEST IRL chance that Paterno heard “fondling” AND a bunch of stuff about “extreme” “sexual contact” and then thought, most likely probability is that McQ. was trying to tell me all he really saw was the “non-sexual” meaning of “fondling” (that is totally obsolete and that no one would in a million years use to refer to naked people), and that the stuff about “sexual” was really just confusion by McQ. You’re wasting everyone’s time here. You’d be better served jerking off (hopefully not to thoughts of fondling boys in the shower, but only in the non-sexual way, or course). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=86) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=88)