# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 88
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1741 "2011-12-21T01:13:14Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > You’re wasting everyone’s time here. You’d be better served jerking off (hopefully not to thoughts of fondling boys in the shower, but only in the non-sexual way, or course). There have been several little quips implying that \*\*SA \*\*might like little boys, and I think this is out of bounds. **Starving** , I was _trying_ to see where you coming from. I, like you, always looked on JoePa as a good guy who did great things for his University. I, like you, was dismayed at the fact that all the good things he has done will be kind of washed away, or at least trivialized, in light of one thing he failed to do. It is sad that he is being villianized for one point of weakness over what appears to be a virtuous life. But it seems like that point of weakness is pretty well documented now. He was told something, and as a leader, he should have done a lot more than he did. He did what was legally required of him, but I am fairly confident he wishes that he did a lot more now. It looks like you are trying to find \*any hint of wiggle room \*and seizing on it. All I can say is I wish what we have read wasn’t true, but it sure looks likes it is. You get what I am saying? ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1742 "2011-12-21T01:33:57Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > There have been several little quips implying that \*\*SA \*\*might like little boys, and I think this is out of bounds. I don’t have any evidence he does, but that quip was more to (a) re-emphasize the fact that you can’t go around saying these bizarre things without making people think you are at a minimum a weirdo; and (b) mocking his preposterous (and pointless) attempts to find some distinction between “sexual fondling” (for which 100% of Americans, including doubtlessly Joe Paterno and Mike McQueary, just use the word “fondling”) and “non-sexual fondling.” I think “ **SA is** a pedo” is out of bounds, but saying or conveying that is not my point with that quip, just illustrating the absurdities that his “logic” leaves him stuck with. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1743 "2011-12-21T01:48:44Z")
The grand jury testimony is linked to on page one. HERE is what McQueary said he saw, when he entered the locker room. This was 9:30 p.m.: (He was still listed as a “graduate assistant”) > [@](#): > > As the graduate assistant entered the locker room doors, he was surprised to find the lights and the showers on. He then heard rhythmic, slapping sounds. He believed the sounds to be those of sexual activity. As the graduate assistant put the sneakers in his locker, he looked into the shower. He saw a naked boy, Victim 2, whose age he estimated to be ten years old, with his hands up against the wall, being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked Sandusky. The graduate assistant was shocked, but noticed that both Victim 2 and Sandusky saw him. The graduate assistant left immediately, distraught. Nothing about “fondling, sexual contact”. While Paterno is saying, “he said something of a sexual nature”, that’s just what he’s DESCRIBING to the media. Chances are, McQueary went into more detail when they talked. He didn’t quote him, just described their conversation. It goes on to point out that McQueary also informed Curley and Schultz of this, and told them, again, of JUST EXACTLY WHAT HE SAW. Despite this, they denied it under oath. All that happened was that Sandusky’s keys were taken away. And eye witness to child rape. But somehow calling the cops would be “hysteria”. Did you read the same reports I did, **Starving Artist**? Forget Paterno. I’m talking about reporting Sandusky period, after you literally saw the guy raping someone. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1744 "2011-12-21T04:12:35Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > You’ve been asked before where you are getting this idea from. You might stop to consider why you are unable to answer. I don’t recall having been asked about this before. I’ve read in this very thread that Paterno testified that that McQueary told him that he’s seen either Sandusky or “a coach” in the shower the night before and that this person was fondling or doing something of a sexual nature with a young boy who appeared to be around ten years old. It is my understanding that this is what Paterno testified that he was told. It is also my understanding from information posted to this thread that McQueary’s testimony agreed pretty closely with Paterno’s account and that McQueary has said he didn’t go into graphic detail out of respect for Paterno. > [@spooje](#): > > Starving, I was trying to see where you coming from. I, like you, always looked on JoePa as a good guy who did great things for his University. I, like you, was dismayed at the fact that all the good things he has done will be kind of washed away, or at least trivialized, in light of one thing he failed to do. It is sad that he is being villianized for one point of weakness over what appears to be a virtuous life. > > But it seems like that point of weakness is pretty well documented now. He was told something, and as a leader, he should have done a lot more than he did. He did what was legally required of him, but I am fairly confident he wishes that he did a lot more now. > > It looks like you are trying to find any hint of wiggle room and seizing on it. All I can say is I wish what we have read wasn’t true, but it sure looks likes it is. > > You get what I am saying? I get what you’re saying, I just don’t agree with it. I do not share the belief that as head of Penn State’s football program Paterno should have done more than he did, even if he had been told everything McQueary saw and believed it wholeheartedly. Yes, Paterno was a leader when it came to the football program, but he was not a leader of any kind when it came to dealing with crime. Investigating allegations of sexual abuse was far outside his area of responsibility, and far outside his capacity as football coach. He had neither the background, the training, nor the authority to do anything more than report what he had heard to his superiors, who did have the authority to look into the matter and whose responsibility it was to do so. All he could reasonably have been expected to do was notify the authorities of what he’d heard. For whatever reason the system had been set up according to law where McQueary was supposed to report to his superiors, which he did, and Paterno was to report to his superiors, which is what he did and was all he was qualified to do. Plus I utterly reject the notion that the only morally correct thing for him to have done was to notify the local police, for the reasons I stated in post 1676. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1745 "2011-12-21T04:20:53Z")
And what about McQueary? Shouldn’t HE have gone to the police? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1746 "2011-12-21T04:45:31Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > That doesn’t mean McQueary didn’t go into more details. I doubt he simply said “I saw Sandusky doing severe sexual acts to a child.” And even if he had, Paterno could have asked for clarification if he thought what was described as sexual acts with a child might be innocent. I believe Paterno had a moral responsibility to do more, including seeking clarification if he was confused. Sorry, I somehow lost these portions of your post in answering **spooje** , so I’ll address them now. I don’t believe Paterno had a responsibility to seek clarification. Like I said to **spooje** , he was not an investigator. His responsibility was to forward the allegations that were reported to him to his superiors, which he did. > [@Carmady](#): > > Paterno was confronted with an account of sexual abuse of a child by a witness he trusted enough to continue to work with for years afterward. He failed the moral test. He didn’t call the police. Even more, he allowed Sandusky to continue using Penn State to find his child victims: he got his victims at camps held at Penn State. He was seen bringing kids to Penn State practices after Paterno was told what happened, and Paterno never followed up. It was a very uncomfortable situation, we all realize that. If it wasn’t, it wouldn’t be a moral test. It would be a moral cakewalk. [/QUOTE] Except that Sandusky was no longer an employee under Paterno at that time and hadn’t been for three years. It was up to the university’s administration to decide what Sandusky could or couldn’t do, not Paterno. And there was no substantive reason for Paterno to get involved anyway as no charges had ever been brought against Sandusky despite the allegations that had been made about him. So I doubt Paterno would have been inclined to try to take action against a guy who had been out of his employ for three years and for whom numerous allegations had gone for naught. And I’m 100% confident that you couldn’t begin to prove that Paterno knowingly allowed Sandusky to seek out or bring victims of sexual abuse into the camps or onto the campus. Sandusky had not been charged much less convicted of any crime, and it simply wasn’t Paterno’s place to intervene as judge and jury and attempt to override the university’s decision to allow Sandusky access to campus facilities. Big time college football coaches have a tiger by the tail and are exceedingly busy people. Most scarcely have time even for their families. It just isn’t realistic to expect Paterno to spend his time trying to ovderride administration officials and police the activities of a guy who had not in point of fact been charged with any crime, and who was no longer Paterno’s responsibility in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1747 "2011-12-21T04:49:41Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And what about McQueary? Shouldn’t HE have gone to the police? If we are to assume that anyone should have notified the local police, McQueary would probably be the number one person to have done that. Secondarily, Curley and Schultz would come next. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1748 "2011-12-21T05:06:10Z")
**Starving Artist** , is this because you truly believe that Paterno did nothing wrong…or because you deeply admire the man, and don’t want to believe he’s guilty of any wrong doing? Because I’m really sensing the latter here. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1749 "2011-12-21T05:08:35Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > If we are to assume that anyone should have notified the local police, McQueary would probably be the number one person to have done that. Secondarily, Curley and Schultz would come next. Thirdly would be Sandusky’s wife Fourth: Penn State towel boy Fifth: Jim at the Quicki-Mart down the street Sixth: ESPN Game Day crew Seventh: Jesus … Nine Hundred Fifty Second: OJ … Twenty Seven Thousand Four Hundred and Eighty Second: Joe Paterno ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1750 "2011-12-21T05:10:59Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Plus I utterly reject the notion that the only morally correct thing for him to have done was to notify the local police, for the reasons I stated in post 1676. How about confonting Sandusky? Asking him a question or two? Like "Why are you bringing boys here to shower, and why were \*\*you _nekkid with them? Don’t you think that might seem indiscreet_??’ **WARNING!!! WAG to follow!!** I think that Paterno and Sandusky were friends. They had a history together. And that history clouded his judgement. I mean, who wants to believe the worst about a friend? Anybody talks smack about your friend, even from another friend, your instinct is to stick up for him. Or at least disbelieve what is being said about him. I get that. I would do that. At least until I saw some actual evidence. But Paterno was the leader of the Football Program. He still is the most recognizable part of that University.\* He had an obligation to protect it.\* He should have asked Sandusky some pointed questions in an effort to protect the Program and the University. Because even IF Sandusky is telling the truth (I know, he isn’t), but if he was…it was\* still \*something that could damage the University. And that was Paterno’s duty. He should have done _at least_ that. If he had, his sterling reputation would still be intact. Again, I don’t think Paterno is a bad guy. I think he is a good guy. He is certainly not a criminal. But this was a huge failing. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1751 "2011-12-21T05:45:02Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > OK, I’ll bite. What would you do if you found out a close friend was using YOU and your treasured sports team as a way of grooming boys for sex abuse? False premise. We have nothing but supposition to conclude that Paterno ever found out any such thing, so what I would do is pointless. > [@Rubystreak](#): > > Can we assume that Paterno believed McQueary that inappropriate behavior was witnessed? Can we also assume that Paterno didn’t confront Sandusky in any way, or prevent future such behavior? I’m not sure on what planet that is OK. I pretty much answered this just above in my post to **Carmady**. > [@Rubystreak](#): > > I urge you to look up statistics on unreported sex abuse v. wrongful accusations of sex abuse. The fact is, far more children are abused who never get justice than men are wrongfully accused. The problem with what you are saying is that I have never once heard you acknowledge that CHILD SEX ABUSE ruins people’s lives. It thrives in cultures where people are more concerned about the reputation of the adult than in the safety of the children, and frankly that is exactly how you are coming off. Can you not see what you’re saying here? Essentially you’re saying it’s okay to unjustly screw over members of one group of people who may be innocent because unrelated innocent people in another group often get screwed over anyway. In other words, two wrongs don’t make a right. > [@Rubystreak](#): > > Of course you don’t run off willy-nilly. You calmly go to the phone and dial when someone you trust, a person who was not prone to hysteria, a person who is quite familiar with what is normal in a football locker room, comes to you very upset by inappropriate behavior between an adult and a child. That is not willy-nilly. Were you talking about Penn State when you made the ‘tiniest hint’ remark, or as general practice? Since I wouldn’t classify McQueary’s statement as a tiny hint, I supposed you were talking about general practice so I answered accordingly. > [@Rubystreak](#): > > Well, that’s just really unfair of you. I have been nothing BUT fair to you in this conversation, so I wish you wouldn’t make statements like this. But, honestly? This wasn’t a situation where any victim accused anyone. This is an EYE WITNESS, one who has ZERO reason to make shit up and EVERY reason to interpret the situation in the least inflammatory way STILL claims to see sex abuse. So again, your comparison is null and void. Nope, sorry, I don’t think so. Just like the type of person who would insist that there is no room for doubt in a rape allegation, you are insisting that there is no room for doubt in child sex abuse allegations. Plus I was speaking again in general terms as I thought you were. > [@Rubystreak](#): > > BUT THAT’S NOT WHAT HAPPENED HERE. So your general statements about this are also irrelevant. Paterno had no reason to doubt McQueary’s assessment of the situation. McQueary was one of them. My general statement are relevant in a general sense, which is how I intended them. > [@Rubystreak](#): > > Don’t put words in my mouth. This is the second time, and it’s dishonest debating. This was not the merest hint. This was a reliable witness saying he saw sex abuse. You should ALWAYS CALL THE POLICE in that situation. You see what you’re doing here? I never said the Penn State incident was the ‘merest hint’. You were the one who said the police should be called anytime there MIGHT be a suspicion of child abuse, which, since the Penn State issue could hardly be characterized as a slight hint, I assumed once again you were speaking of what should be done as general practice. 1. How often do you really think that happens? Truly? Do you think it’s fun for children to have to say that someone molested them and go through all the craziness of that? I guarantee you there are a vanishingly small number of incidents of children wrongfully alleging sex abuse. 2. No children were involved in reporting this incident. McQueary reported it. So there was ZERO chance that this was a wrongful accusation. 3. There WAS sex abuse in this situation… so the police should have been called, obviously. 4. Merely calling the police does not lead to an arrest. It leads to an investigation. That would have been fully warranted in this situation. > [@Rubystreak](#): > > Guess what? What’s fair and just DID NOT HAPPEN. And it DID NOT HAPPEN in part because of Joe Paterno. Again, general practice, etc., etc. You’ve taken a whole slew of comments I made in a general sense and applied them to the Penn State issue, which is a completely different ball of wax. So essentially for this whole post we’re simply talking at cross purposes. > [@Rubystreak](#): > > I’m a working mom, so I am pretty busy. I hope you’re well too-- despite the fact that you are a total loon, I remain fond of your crazy ass 😃 As I do you. 🙂 The last time we talked you were a brand-new mom, and I’d been wondering how smoothly or not the transition had been going. Thinking back to the time when my daughter was born, I imagine that ‘pretty busy’ is a bit of an understatement. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1752 "2011-12-21T06:09:28Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **Starving Artist** , is this because you truly believe that Paterno did nothing wrong…or because you deeply admire the man, and don’t want to believe he’s guilty of any wrong doing? Because I’m really sensing the latter here. Here’s the thing: I don’t believe he did anything wrong. And I don’t believe anyone under similar circumstances who did the same thing would be doing anything wrong. So it especially galls me that Joe Paterno, a man who has lived his entire life as a man of high moral character, has been scapegoated like this just so a high-ranking head will roll. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1753 "2011-12-21T06:17:43Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Here’s the thing: I don’t believe he did anything wrong. And I don’t believe anyone under similar circumstances who did the same thing would be doing anything wrong. So it especially galls me that Joe Paterno, a man who has lived his entire life as a man of high moral character, has been scapegoated like this just so a high-ranking head will roll. Sort of like Cardinal Law. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1754 "2011-12-21T06:33:42Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > How about confonting Sandusky? Asking him a question or two? Like "Why are you bringing boys here to shower, and why were \*\*you _nekkid with them? Don’t you think that might seem indiscreet_??’ > > **WARNING!!! WAG to follow!!** > > I think that Paterno and Sandusky were friends. They had a history together. And that history clouded his judgement. I mean, who wants to believe the worst about a friend? Anybody talks smack about your friend, even from another friend, your instinct is to stick up for him. Or at least disbelieve what is being said about him. I get that. I would do that. At least until I saw some actual evidence. > > But Paterno was the leader of the Football Program. He still is the most recognizable part of that University.\* He had an obligation to protect it.\* He should have asked Sandusky some pointed questions in an effort to protect the Program and the University. Because even IF Sandusky is telling the truth (I know, he isn’t), but if he was…it was\* still \*something that could damage the University. And that was Paterno’s duty. He should have done _at least_ that. > > If he had, his sterling reputation would still be intact. > > Again, I don’t think Paterno is a bad guy. I think he is a good guy. He is certainly not a criminal. But this was a huge failing. Well then, let me provide a WAG of my own: I wouldn’t think that Paterno, a guy who lived his whole life in the masculine world of big time college football, would feel particularly kindly toward a longtime friend who he learned was engaging in what amounted to homosexual sodomy with children. Further, he didn’t try at all to get McQueary to sweep what he saw under the rug, nor did he try to sugar coat or play down Sandusky’s behavior when he reported it to the university’s administration. So I don’t really think we can suppose that Paterno was covering for Sandusky out of loyalty as a friend. With regard to moral failings, no one is perfect. No one. But doesn’t one’s past history for integrity count for anything? I would expect that in a just world, Paterno would be forgiven an error in judgement for not contacting the local police, because we all make mistakes and he undoubtedly thought he was doing the right thing. I am just not of the opinion that people should be excoriated and harshly punished because of unintentional wrongdoing, and especially not when there’s been no precedent set to suggest they should have acted otherwise to begin with ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1755 "2011-12-21T06:39:34Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > With regard to moral failings, no one is perfect. No one. But doesn’t one’s past history for integrity count for anything? You keep mentioning his sterling reputation for integrity. What is that based on; what has he done besides coach football? ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1756 "2011-12-21T07:24:42Z")
I’m not seeing a lot of integrity anywhere in this story… ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1757 "2011-12-21T15:10:44Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > No footwork at all. Paterno had an incentive to downplay or perhaps be somewhat vague about the amount of detail he was given, to excuse his conduct/inaction, and McQueary had an incentive to emphasize just how much detail he’d given Paterno, to justify his own lack of earlier/further action. Paterno was stuck with admitting some degree of sexual conduct was reported, both because McQueary was going to swear to this, and because Paterno had to subsequently swear to giving a fairly serious report to Schultz and Curley. I suspect both Paterno and McQ. shaded their respective testimony, of course they would, but unlike Schultz and Curley, both told the truth on the core fact that McQ. had seen sexual contact. There’s no inconsistency or footwork required. Not so. You contrasted Paterno’s testimony (“sexual in nature”) with McQueary’s (“extreme sexual contact”), and you attempted to bolster McQueary’s version, as this one was more helpful to the arguments you’ve been making in this thread. To that end, you noted one aspect that tended to weaken Paterno’s testimony (that it was “self-serving”) and one aspect that tended to strengthen McQueary’s (that he “swore” to it). You did not note at that time what you apparently acknowledge now - that McQueary’s testimony was also self-serving and Paterno’s testimony was also sworn. Had you done that, it would have undermined what you were trying to accomplish, because the “sworn” and “self-serving” aspects would then not have been a reason to believe McQueary’s version over Paterno’s. That’s what I referred to as “nice footwork”. Of course, by the standards of this board in general and this thread in particular, this is no big deal. There’s far more dishonesty being perpetuated by those eager to find justification to condemn others to whom they smugly feel so superior. But in the context of your ongoing spittle-dribbling attacks on Starving Artist’s integrity, I found it amusing. Starving Artist is one guy taking on an entire gang, and if he misses this or fails to respond to that he needs to get cut some slack on that account. You, on the other hand, are the leader (at least in post count) of this gang of bullies. You can afford to adhere to a higher standard. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1758 "2011-12-21T15:13:43Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Of course, by the standards of this board in general and this thread in particular, this is no big deal. There’s far more dishonesty being perpetuated by those eager to find justification to condemn others to whom they smugly feel so superior. But in the context of your ongoing spittle-dribbling attacks on Starving Artist’s integrity, I found it amusing. Starving Artist is one guy taking on an entire gang, and if he misses this or fails to respond to that he needs to get cut some slack on that account. You, on the other hand, are the leader (at least in post count) of this gang of bullies. You can afford to adhere to a higher standard. Nice footwork. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1759 "2011-12-21T15:46:26Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > With regard to moral failings, no one is perfect. No one. But doesn’t one’s past history for integrity count for anything? I would expect that in a just world, Paterno would be forgiven an error in judgement for not contacting the local police, because we all make mistakes and he undoubtedly thought he was doing the right thing. I am just not of the opinion that people should be excoriated and harshly punished because of unintentional wrongdoing Paterno can be forgiven. However, that doesn’t mean that he should continue to get paid $1,000,000 a year to be the coach of Penn State and be the single most recognizable person affiliated with the school. His error may have allowed numerous little children to be victimized. Contrast that with any one of a number of NCAA violations that coaches are justifiably fired over, or fired over the simple idea that the team does not perform as well as the boosters demand. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1760 "2011-12-21T16:02:21Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Paterno can be forgiven. However, that doesn’t mean that he should continue to get paid $1,000,000 a year to be the coach of Penn State and be the single most recognizable person affiliated with the school. It’s been said earlier in this thread, by PSU alums and other seemingly knowlegable people, that JP and his football program were the largest force in building up PSU from a small time institution to a major state college. If this is correct, then PSU owes JP quite a lot, and shouldn’t be ditching the guy the second it becomes expedient to do so. > [@](#): > > His error may have allowed numerous little children to be victimized. Contrast that with any one of a number of NCAA violations that coaches are justifiably fired over, or fired over the simple idea that the team does not perform as well as the boosters demand. There’s a fundamental difference - in terms of whether one should keep one’s job - between a failing in the area of one’s core job responsibilities and a failure in an area that is at best ancillarily related to it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=87) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=89)