# It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167 "2011-11-07T14:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 89
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1761 "2011-12-21T16:33:15Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > PSU owes JP quite a lot, and shouldn’t be ditching the guy the second it becomes expedient to do so. I don’t think the men in charge were thinking “Thank God we finally have an excuse to dump that Paterno guy.” I think they were concerned that keeping him would have significant negative consequences for the school. While I appreciate JP’s contribution to the growth of the school, that’s not justification to wreck what was built in order to make JP feel appreciated. While the mistake may have been ancillary to his job, the impact on the school is very large, and the decision to fire him was based on that impact, not the exact nature of the mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1762 "2011-12-21T16:39:34Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I don’t think the men in charge were thinking “Thank God we finally have an excuse to dump that Paterno guy.” Actually it’s been alleged that the BOD has been trying to ease JP out for a while already. But that was not my point here. > [@](#): > > I think they were concerned that keeping him would have significant negative consequences for the school. While I appreciate JP’s contribution to the growth of the school, that’s not justification to wreck what was built in order to make JP feel appreciated. Obviously not to “wreck it” completely. But IMO the right thing to do is to take a bit of a hit for the guy who gave you that much. YMMV. > [@](#): > > While the mistake may have been ancillary to his job, the impact on the school is very large, and the decision to fire him was based on that impact, not the exact nature of the mistake. I was commenting about the specific comparison you made (to NCAA violations or not getting the job done altogether). ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1763 "2011-12-21T17:23:43Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Not so. > > You contrasted Paterno’s testimony (“sexual in nature”) with McQueary’s (“extreme sexual contact”), and you attempted to bolster McQueary’s version, as this one was more helpful to the arguments you’ve been making in this thread. To that end, you noted one aspect that tended to weaken Paterno’s testimony (that it was “self-serving”) and one aspect that tended to strengthen McQueary’s (that he “swore” to it). You did not note at that time what you apparently acknowledge now - that McQueary’s testimony was also self-serving and Paterno’s testimony was also sworn. Had you done that, it would have undermined what you were trying to accomplish, because the “sworn” and “self-serving” aspects would then not have been a reason to believe McQueary’s version over Paterno’s. That’s what I referred to as “nice footwork”. > > Of course, by the standards of this board in general and this thread in particular, this is no big deal. There’s far more dishonesty being perpetuated by those eager to find justification to condemn others to whom they smugly feel so superior. But in the context of your ongoing spittle-dribbling attacks on Starving Artist’s integrity, I found it amusing. Starving Artist is one guy taking on an entire gang, and if he misses this or fails to respond to that he needs to get cut some slack on that account. You, on the other hand, are the leader (at least in post count) of this gang of bullies. You can afford to adhere to a higher standard. You on **SA** ’s team? I honestly cannot believe you think I **needed** to prove “extreme sexual conduct” to prove the point of the OP, which is that Paterno morally had to report it. Paterno’s own perhaps dumbed-down version of “fondling or sexual contact” MORE THAN establishes that. Why did I quote McQueary’s more explicit version? Well, this is where trolling comes in. We have a moron who was claiming that “fondling or sexual contact” could have been taken by Paterno, quite reasonably, to mean “non-sexual fondling.” No, I don’t know what that means to any serious adult, either. But the moron has lots of time, a huge boner for Paterno, and too much ego to be a man and admit “my hero was wrong, he clearly heard about a serious sexual assault, and morally he should have reported it to police.” He’s too small and insane a person to make that simple admission. So those of us frustrated by his lying mendacious ways are forced to quote the multiple, mutually consistent, all under oath, sources for the serious allegations that Paterno clearly heard and understood, to refute that loon’s persistent attempts to create a world in which some tiny verbal loophole in one passage of GJ allegations somehow creates a counter-factual world in which Paterno **just didn’t have any way to know** a sexual assault had occurred. Paterno’s own words indict him. McQueary’s words clarify that, for those too stupid to understand that. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1764 "2011-12-21T17:28:59Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > There’s a fundamental difference - in terms of whether one should keep one’s job - between a failing in the area of one’s core job responsibilities and a failure in an area that is at best ancillarily related to it. Like I said before - Paterno was at the heart of it a member of a university faculty. And for university faculty sexual abuse prevention is not an ancillary responsibility. It is very much a core responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1765 "2011-12-21T17:41:29Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > You on **SA** ’s team? I honestly cannot believe you think I **needed** to prove “extreme sexual conduct” to prove the point of the OP, which is that Paterno morally had to report it. Paterno’s own perhaps dumbed-down version of “fondling or sexual contact” MORE THAN establishes that. I don’t know whether you needed to do it or not, but you did, and it’s clear to me what you were doing. Calling it as I see it. (Here’s a link to the [original post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14585796&postcount=1681) - final two sentences.) > [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Like I said before - Paterno was at the heart of it a member of a university faculty. And for university faculty sexual abuse prevention is not an ancillary responsibility. It is very much a core responsibility. When I say “core responsibility” I mean the job he was hired to do. The football coach is not hired for the purpose of preventing sexual abuse. It’s an ancillary responsibility that comes with the job. And in this case it’s even more ancillary, because Sandusky was not a PSU employee and the victim was not a PSU student. (Which is of course not to say that he has no responsibility, only that it can’t be compared to failures in his core area etc. etc.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1766 "2011-12-21T17:46:09Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **Starving Artist** , is this because you truly believe that Paterno did nothing wrong…or because you deeply admire the man, and don’t want to believe he’s guilty of any wrong doing? Because I’m really sensing the latter here. He doesn’t believe either of these things. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1767 "2011-12-21T18:30:54Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > And in this case it’s even more ancillary, because Sandusky was not a PSU employee and the victim was not a PSU student. (Which is of course not to say that he has no responsibility, only that it can’t be compared to failures in his core area etc. etc.) Paterno had control of access to the PSU facilities, where Sandusky was using such authorized access to sodomize little boys. And, have you conveniently forgotten that Paterno was closely involved with and often served as a spokesman for Second Mile, where Sandusky was recruiting and grooming his victims? Frontmen for charities serving (exploiting) children don’t have fiduciary duties all of a sudden? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1768 "2011-12-21T18:32:08Z")
And at one point, it was expected that Sandusky would take over as head coach when Paterno retired, was it not? ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1769 "2011-12-21T18:40:00Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And at one point, it was expected that Sandusky would take over as head coach when Paterno retired, was it not? That was probably moot after he “retired,” which he already had when he raped victim no. 2 as McQueary watched and Paterno did the bare minimum. The suspicion is he was forced out because of earlier “horseplay” in the shower, though he’s earlier said (and though he’s a liar, this was borne out by Paterno’s hubristic decision to cling to the head coach position well into his dotage) he quit out of a realization that Paterno would never willingly retire. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1770 "2011-12-21T18:41:46Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > There’s a fundamental difference - in terms of whether one should keep one’s job - between a failing in the area of one’s core job responsibilities and a failure in an area that is at best ancillarily related to it. Being a moral human being is not ancillary to being an employee of an educational institution in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Please read the [Mandated Reporting Requirements ( PA Code 42.42 )](http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/049/chapter42/s42.42.html). He covered up and in doing so abrogated his legal responsibility. His choices were amoral as well as illegal. It’s really as simple as that. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1771 "2011-12-21T19:28:37Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > That was probably moot after he “retired,” which he already had when he raped victim no. 2 as McQueary watched and Paterno did the bare minimum. The suspicion is he was forced out because of earlier “horseplay” in the shower, though he’s earlier said (and though he’s a liar, this was borne out by Paterno’s hubristic decision to cling to the head coach position well into his dotage) he quit out of a realization that Paterno would never willingly retire. Thanks, I couldn’t remember if that was before or after he retired. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1772 "2011-12-21T19:37:08Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Paterno had control of access to the PSU facilities, where Sandusky was using such authorized access to sodomize little boys. > > And, have you conveniently forgotten that Paterno was closely involved with and often served as a spokesman for Second Mile, where Sandusky was recruiting and grooming his victims? Frontmen for charities serving (exploiting) children don’t have fiduciary duties all of a sudden? Let’s do this again: > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > (Which is of course not to say that he has no responsibility, only that it can’t be compared to failures in his core area etc. etc.) I’m not too optimistic that this point will sink in, because you actually quoted this before responding as if you hadn’t read it. But give it a shot this time. Note also to Cartooniverse. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1773 "2011-12-21T20:44:47Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Let’s do this again:I’m not too optimistic that this point will sink in, because you actually quoted this before responding as if you hadn’t read it. But give it a shot this time. > > Note also to Cartooniverse. Morality doesn’t have a “core area” (you’re morally obligated to call the cops when you know of someone you’ve never met being attacked in the public street), but playing along, the locker room he controls and the children’s charity he lends his name to, knowing it helps Sandusky groom victims, are about as close to a core area as anything I can imagine. You do understand (?) that overseeing the football facilities and their use is part and parcel of the “core” job of coaching, which you seem to be pretending ends when he steps off the field. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1774 "2011-12-21T20:48:09Z")
Reread the exchange, beginning with Cheesetake’s Post #1753. At best, you’re operating from a different premise and can’t relate to Cheesetake’s point. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1775 "2011-12-21T21:28:44Z")
I realize a lot of people respect Paterno, but give me a break. He’s a football coach. He doesn’t teach kids to read. He’s not going to invent the next wonder drug. He doesn’t even teach the guys to play football, for Goddess sake, he gets high level players. He also has assistant coaches and recruiters to help. Yes, his football program helped Penn State grow. No doubt about it, he did some good things for the school and should be remembered for those things. I just don’t see how the school could possibly be expected to keep him in such a high level position now that the world knows he participated in a coverup of child sexual molestation. A university is about more than one guy - and that guy a coach. What about the players, who are certainly wishing they had chosen a different school about now? What about the students who don’t give a rat’s ass about football, who are going to hear child molestation comments anytime they admit where they go to school? The only way Penn State can possibly recover from this is to clear out everyone involved (IMO, that includes McCreary) and start from scratch. It’s the only way they can retain a shred of credibility as an institution of higher learning. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1776 "2011-12-21T21:30:05Z")
> [@SnakesCatLady](#): > > He doesn’t teach kids to read. [snip] He doesn’t even teach the guys to play football, for Goddess sake, Hell, he doesn’t even teach kids to shower. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1777 "2011-12-21T21:47:13Z")
> [@SnakesCatLady](#): > > I realize a lot of people respect Paterno, but give me a break. I don’t think I’m inclined to argue this point at this time, but I do want to clarify that there are two independent points relating to Paterno’s history and character being made. 1. To the extent that there is some meaningful ambiguity about Paterno’s actions and motivations, then it’s logical to use his history as a factor in judging what he likely did in this instance. This is a point being made SA and others (& FWIW, I agree with it). Others see no room for meaningful doubt as to Paterno’s actions in this matter and thus reject the point, but this is one point, such as it is. 2. Leaving aside what Paterno’s history tells us about this incident, and even if there is no ambiguity about this incident, and it represents a failure by Paterno etc., the question is whether he deserves to have some slack cut for him by an institution to which he gave so much. This is the point which I’ve been discussing with Cheesesteak. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1778 "2011-12-21T22:19:15Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > 1. To the extent that there is some meaningful ambiguity about Paterno’s actions and motivations, then it’s logical to use his history as a factor in judging what he likely did in this instance. This is a point being made SA and others (& FWIW, I agree with it). Others see no room for meaningful doubt as to Paterno’s actions in this matter and thus reject the point, but this is one point, such as it is. Okay, but what exactly is it that you all think he did? What makes him such an exemplar of integrity? > [@](#): > > 1. Leaving aside what Paterno’s history tells us about this incident, and even if there is no ambiguity about this incident, and it represents a failure by Paterno etc., the question is whether he deserves to have some slack cut for him by an institution to which he gave so much. This is the point which I’ve been discussing with Cheesesteak. If he “gave so much” to Penn State, he has also received quite a bit in return. I did a google search to find his salary. Wikipedia gives it as more than half a million dollars in 2007. Despite being a public university, it took a court to force the release of that figure. Wikipedia also offers the following: > [@](#): > > Michigan Athletic Director Don Canham contacted Paterno in 1969 to see if Paterno (whom Canham respected and knew personally) would accept the vacant Michigan job. Paterno turned down the offer and Michigan hired Bo Schembechler. In 1972, Paterno was offered the head coaching position by the New England Patriots. He accepted their offer, but only three weeks later decided to back out of it. The Patriots hired Chuck Fairbanks of Oklahoma instead. > > In 1995, Paterno was forced to apologize for a profanity-laced tirade directed at Rutgers then-head coach Doug Graber at the conclusion of a nationally televised game.[8] He was also accused of “making light of sexual assault” in 2006 by the National Organization for Women which called for his resignation,[9] and was involved in a road rage incident in 2007.[10] I’m blown away by such integrity. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1779 "2011-12-21T22:40:56Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > If he “gave so much” to Penn State, he has also received quite a bit in return. I did a google search to find his salary. Wikipedia gives it as more than half a million dollars in 2007. Despite being a public university, it took a court to force the release of that figure. Just FYI, his latest salary was $1,022,794. Which is a paltry sum compared to other head coaches, even amongst Big Ten schools. Luke Fickel at Ohio State made $1,172,000 as an interim Head Coach. [http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/story/2011-11-17/cover-college-football-coaches-salaries-rise/51242232/1](http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/story/2011-11-17/cover-college-football-coaches-salaries-rise/51242232/1) ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167/1780 "2011-12-21T22:47:01Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I’m blown away by such integrity. Non-sequiturs. You can’t take a few unrelated, piddling events occurring over the course of decades and from that, conclude that Paterno was wrong to keep quiet about a little boy being ass-raped by a middle-aged man in their showers. And what about all the people, prepubescent boys and adults alike, who _weren’t_ ass-raped in the showers on Paterno’s watch? Why the insistence by the media, and some posters on this board, to focus solely on the negative? And frankly, even if you have a few little boys being ass-raped on one side, you still have the guy helping win a \*lot \*of football games on the other side. The balance still tips in his favor. We should be throwing the guy a parade, not subjecting this saint among men to a modern-day witch hunt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=88) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-officially-pit-joe-paterno-and-the-penn-state-football-program/602167.md?page=90)