# It's time to stop requiring students to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in school. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 2, 2016, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995 "2016-04-02T23:15:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/81 "2016-04-06T05:09:15Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I have never heard the term “excluded middle.” Please define it and tell me how it applies in this context. Joe: I love X! Don’t you? Jack: Well, to be honest, no. Joe: Why do you hate X? Joe: Jesus was perfect in every way. Jack: Well, no: he lost his temper a couple times. Joe: So you obviously think Jesus was stupid, useless, and psychotic. Wikipedia equates it to the “false dichotomy” fallacy, although, in my mind, there are subtle differences. The key, though, is in trying to forbid moderate viewpoints by trying to force all beliefs into extremism. After **hajario** said that Red Skelton, in the quote linked, was full of shit, you said… > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Well, I guess everybody who disagrees with you is. I didn’t know there was any perfect person in the world. Would you walk across the Pacific Ocean tomorrow? But he never said anything about “everybody who disagrees.” He gave one specific example of something he thought was full of shit. You extrapolated that to include everybody else he disagrees with, completely without evidence, and in contravention of logic. Then you started talking about perfection, as if there was no possible middle ground between “full of shit” and “perfect.” But any intelligent person knows there is a vast amount of middle ground between the two. A great many of us – including yourself – including myself! – can be quite wrong, but not be “full of shit.” You excluded that vital middle ground. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/82 "2016-04-06T12:44:28Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > One thing I have noticed–and deplored–is the way so many kids, of whatever period, write. In 1959 the National Education Association had asked some 16-year-old high-school sophomores to write down the beginning of the Pledge of Allegiance. Here are some results: > I plage of lieglion > I plege allenaige > I pleadge a leision > I pledge a leasor > I plege alginyence > I pleage allenciss > I pleague the Leagience > I pledge a leiguch > This appeared in _Psychology Applied_ (p. 686), by Dr. George W. Crane, who commented on this list: “Yet in 5 years these students will be voters!” > The Pledge of Allegiance is far less important than basic education, which these kids in _high school,_ for crying out loud, did not seem to have absorbed! > The Pledge had originated in 1892 from a Columbus Day observance and over the years had become hide-bound tradition, to the point that kids were pretty much compelled to recite it. This, as I see it, flies in the face of the very spirit of the freedoms this country was founded on. I consider myself as much a loyal American as the next guy but I see no point in reciting something by rote in order to show it. One of my issues is that kids don’t know what allegiance is. Concepts like liberty and justice are pretty abstract - to a kid justice is fairness and fairness is often “I get what I want.” (Heck, its pretty hard to understand for a lot of adults). I teach Unitarian Sunday School to 2nd and 3rd graders - justice is a big concept for us - we start working on it in preschool and most of the kids get it before they graduate from high school. But elementary school kids - where you are most like to find the pledge - its really rare for them to understand it as a complex abstraction. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/83 "2016-04-06T13:43:46Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > One of my issues is that kids don’t know what allegiance is. Right. If we were to take it serioudly, the sensible time for people to pledge their allegiance to the country, once, would be upon reaching adulthood, or upon applying for citizenship, whichever comes later. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/84 "2016-04-06T14:13:07Z")
IMHO, it is past time to drop the PoA from regular classroom use. There are two possibilities: either ‘allegiance’ is a big deal to pledge (as in the implication that divided or multiple allegiances are a Bad Thing) or it’s something trivial, like your loyalty to the sports teams you root for. (True, there’s middle ground, but basically whatever ‘allegiance’ means, it’s somewhere on that spectrum.) If it’s a Big Deal, then only adults should be asked to pledge it. But if it’s kinda trivial, WTF is it doing in our classrooms every day? Seems like it’s got a big role for something relatively unimportant. Either way, it should be gone. And I don’t really see a middle ground where it’s trivial enough that elementary-school kids should be reciting it, but important enough that they should be asked to do so every day. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/85 "2016-04-06T15:03:55Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Joe: I love X! Don’t you? > Jack: Well, to be honest, no. > Joe: Why do you hate X? > > Joe: Jesus was perfect in every way. > Jack: Well, no: he lost his temper a couple times. > Joe: So you obviously think Jesus was stupid, useless, and psychotic. > > Wikipedia equates it to the “false dichotomy” fallacy, although, in my mind, there are subtle differences. The key, though, is in trying to forbid moderate viewpoints by trying to force all beliefs into extremism. > > After **hajario** said that Red Skelton, in the quote linked, was full of shit, you said… > > But he never said anything about “everybody who disagrees.” He gave one specific example of something he thought was full of shit. You extrapolated that to include everybody else he disagrees with, completely without evidence, and in contravention of logic. > > Then you started talking about perfection, as if there was no possible middle ground between “full of shit” and “perfect.” But any intelligent person knows there is a vast amount of middle ground between the two. A great many of us – including yourself – including myself! – can be quite wrong, but not be “full of shit.” You excluded that vital middle ground. I had read, and heard, Skelton’s disquisition several times before finding it on the Snopes website. It seems simple enough, and despite my own convictions about the subject I liked his argument. However, to see a crude insult like that–which Skelton’s discussion certainly did not deserve (what did he do to YOU, Hajario?) was, to me, an outrage and an unnecessary attack on Skelton’s memory. Hence my sarcastic question about Hajario apparently considering himself, by contrast, perfect. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/86 "2016-04-06T15:06:38Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Right. If we were to take it serioudly, the sensible time for people to pledge their allegiance to the country, once, would be upon reaching adulthood, or upon applying for citizenship, whichever comes later. Can this issue be considered in connection with immigrant kids presented with the pledge? ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/87 "2016-04-06T15:36:31Z")
I don’t recall it being said in school past fifth grade and I never gave it much thought. I certainly didn’t think of it as an actual _pledge_ or even ponder it’s meaning at all; it was just another thing you did in school. I’m kind of surprised to hear people express such strong feelings about it. _Indoctrination_? Really? Do you think kids actually internalize it or give it any kind of thought ? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/88 "2016-04-06T15:37:25Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Right. If we were to take it serioudly, the sensible time for people to pledge their allegiance to the country, once, would be upon reaching adulthood, or upon applying for citizenship, whichever comes later. And I suspect we’d have constitutional problems with requiring a pledge at adulthood. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/89 "2016-04-06T15:43:12Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > One thing I have noticed–and deplored–is the way so many kids, of whatever period, write. In 1959 the National Education Association had asked some 16-year-old high-school sophomores to write down the beginning of the Pledge of Allegiance. Here are some results: > I plage of lieglion > I plege allenaige > I pleadge a leision > I pledge a leasor > I plege alginyence > I pleage allenciss > I pleague the Leagience > I pledge a leiguch > This appeared in _Psychology Applied_ (p. 686), by Dr. George W. Crane, who commented on this list: “Yet in 5 years these students will be voters!” > The Pledge of Allegiance is far less important than basic education, which these kids in _high school,_ for crying out loud, did not seem to have absorbed! > The Pledge had originated in 1892 from a Columbus Day observance and over the years had become hide-bound tradition, to the point that kids were pretty much compelled to recite it. This, as I see it, flies in the face of the very spirit of the freedoms this country was founded on. I consider myself as much a loyal American as the next guy but I see no point in reciting something by rote in order to show it. One tends to wonder if a similar studies were conducted among college students and/or members of the workforce, and if so, what were the results… ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/90 "2016-04-06T15:49:07Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > One tends to wonder if a similar studies were conducted among college students and/or members of the workforce, and if so, what were the results… That’s a good point…I hate to think that college students would be scarcely more literate than those high-school sophomores (and I don’t mean just the ones who made it on athletic scholarships!) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/91 "2016-04-06T15:54:18Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > _Indoctrination_? Really? Do you think kids actually internalize it or give it any kind of thought ? Can you think of any other reason to make them repeat it day after day at such an early age? That’s not something done with a simple pledge. Swearing in ceremony to join the military-once, and done. Swearing in ceremony to become a judge-once, and done. Swearing in ceremony to become The President Of The United States Of America-once, and done. Surely those pledges are _at least_ as important as the Pledge of Allegiance…but when the soldiers, judges and Presidents get to work every day nobody says, “It’s not that we didn’t believe that you were totally sincere yesterday, but just to be sure…”. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/92 "2016-04-06T16:30:24Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Now there’s a good straight line, Ascenray. Thanks. And I know just whose neck I might want to yank the chain around… “loopy,” indeed! **dougie\_monty** , you’ve been told repeatedly not to post things that sound like threats to another poster any time you think you’ve been slighted. I’m issuing a warning for this. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/93 "2016-04-06T16:39:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can you think of any other reason to make them repeat it day after day at such an early age? That’s not something done with a simple pledge. Swearing in ceremony to join the military-once, and done. Swearing in ceremony to become a judge-once, and done. Swearing in ceremony to become The President Of The United States Of America-once, and done. Surely those pledges are _at least_ as important as the Pledge of Allegiance…but when the soldiers, judges and Presidents get to work every day nobody says, “It’s not that we didn’t believe that you were totally sincere yesterday, but just to be sure…”. I’m thinking more in terms of the effectiveness than the intent. I mean, I get what you’re asking and I can’t really think of a good reason yet at the same time, it seems a pretty weak attempt. Surely no one thinks kids take it seriously:confused: ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/94 "2016-04-06T17:15:09Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > **dougie\_monty** , you’ve been told repeatedly not to post things that sound like threats to another poster any time you think you’ve been slighted. I’m issuing a warning for this. I accept the warning. I understand. While you’re at it you might consider reprimanding Hajario for calling my statement “loopy” and something to laugh at. Such bald contempt is plenty malicious and injurious itself but somehow people sorta close one eye and look the other way. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/95 "2016-04-06T17:19:09Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > I don’t recall it being said in school past fifth grade and I never gave it much thought. I certainly didn’t think of it as an actual _pledge_ or even ponder it’s meaning at all; it was just another thing you did in school. I’m kind of surprised to hear people express such strong feelings about it. _Indoctrination_? Really? Do you think kids actually internalize it or give it any kind of thought ? That’s the thing; it’s quite likely that they DO internalize it, to the point where it becomes an ingrained, even Pavlovian, reflex to free-associate admirable national attributes and qualities to America and the American flag. If we wish to indoctrinate kids to associate them, we should be making the effort to help them understand that the admirable attributes and qualities are _aspirational_; the PoA as currently pushed tends to portray them as inherent and latent. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/96 "2016-04-06T17:21:17Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > I’m thinking more in terms of the effectiveness than the intent. I mean, I get what you’re asking and I can’t really think of a good reason yet at the same time, it seems a pretty weak attempt. Surely no one thinks kids take it seriously:confused: But what other reason for having them say it day after day at such an early age can there possibly be than indoctrination? If you have another, I’d like to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/97 "2016-04-06T17:25:25Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I accept the warning. I understand. While you’re at it you might consider reprimanding Hajario for calling my statement “loopy” and something to laugh at. Such bald contempt is plenty malicious and injurious itself but somehow people sorta close one eye and look the other way. ☹ Actually, he made a comment about that particular post, and did not attack you personally. If you wish to discuss this particular ruling any further, please start a thread in ATMB. And as I know I’ve told you before, if you really believe another poster has done something against the board’s rules, then report the post, rather than attempting to respond in kind. Thanks. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/98 "2016-04-06T17:28:21Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > One of my issues is that kids don’t know what allegiance is. They don’t know who Richard Stanz is, either. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/99 "2016-04-06T17:46:12Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > Actually, he made a comment about that particular post, and did not attack you personally. > > If you wish to discuss this particular ruling any further, please start a thread in ATMB. And as I know I’ve told you before, if you really believe another poster has done something against the board’s rules, then report the post, rather than attempting to respond in kind. Thanks. > > Carry on. Will do. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/100 "2016-04-06T17:47:54Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > They don’t know who Richard Stanz is, either. Not only that, they don’t know why one nation is in a dirigible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995.md?page=6)