# It's time to stop requiring students to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in school. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 2, 2016, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995 "2016-04-02T23:15:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/101 "2016-04-06T18:31:04Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Hence my sarcastic question about Hajario apparently considering himself, by contrast, perfect. This is a stretch that is beyond ridiculous. I don’t consider myself perfect and I never even came close to implying that. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/102 "2016-04-06T18:33:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But what other reason for having them say it day after day at such an early age can there possibly be than indoctrination? If you have another, I’d like to hear it. As I admitted, I can’t really offer a concrete reason. I suppose it _is_ a form of indoctrination in the strictest sense, but(to me) seems innocuous. Partly because, at my school at least, saying it was something that wasn’t enforced or emphasized in any way. It would never have occurred to me (or _seemingly_ anyone else, though I obviously have no way of knowing for sure)to take a stand or refuse to do it because it simply had no meaning, literally. If the words were ever explained to me at that age, it sure didn’t make an impression. So, while I can’t speak to the intentions of the school administrator’s, as a kid I always just interpreted it as a sort of a patriotic ritual that I had a vague sense all Americans just kind of . . . memorized. Like learning your times tables. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/103 "2016-04-06T18:48:38Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > This is a stretch that is beyond ridiculous. I don’t consider myself perfect and I never even came close to implying that. Well, you could have tempered your appraisal of Red Skelton with some discretion. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/104 "2016-04-06T18:51:39Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Well, you could have tempered your appraisal of Red Skelton with some discretion. Why? Most if it was silly glurge. This part though: > [@Red Skelton](#): > > Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country, and two words have been added to the Pledge of Allegiance: Under God. Wouldn’t it be a pity if someone said, “That is a prayer” – and that be eliminated from our schools, too? was offensive, disgusting and un-American. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/105 "2016-04-06T20:18:04Z")
Alaska and Hawaii were admitted in 1959, and the Supreme Court decision about prayers in schools was handed down in 1961. I assume Skelton composed this speech shortly after the latter. [Shrug] Well, you’re entitled to your opinion. I have no objection to it, in any case, and I don’t see why you do. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/106 "2016-04-06T20:43:18Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I have no objection to it, in any case, and I don’t see why you do. Because there’s no need to invoke a Deity in a Pledge of Allegiance. It’s against the principles of this nations, and Red Skelton’s opinion is simple minded and offensive to many people. Not just atheists don’t want it there. It was put into the Pledge when it wasn’t needed, and now squats there for no reason. Whether one believes in God or Gods or none, one can still hold that invoking God in government mandated pledge is wrong. Even if you don’t agree with this idea I find it pretty odd for you to say that you can’t imagine someone else feeling this way. Do you at least understand why an atheist would object to it? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/107 "2016-04-06T20:48:24Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Even if you don’t agree with this idea I find it pretty odd for you to say that you can’t imagine someone else feeling this way. Do you at least understand why an atheist would object to it? …or someone who’s religion guides them to pray privately, or is forbidden by their faith to name their deity out loud, or someone who prays to a different god. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/108 "2016-04-06T20:49:00Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Because there’s no need to invoke a Deity in a Pledge of Allegiance. It’s against the principles of this nations, and Red Skelton’s opinion is simple minded and offensive to many people. Not just atheists don’t want it there. It was put into the Pledge when it wasn’t needed, and now squats there for no reason. > > Whether one believes in God or Gods or none, one can still hold that invoking God in government mandated pledge is wrong. Even if you don’t agree with this idea I find it pretty odd for you to say that you can’t imagine someone else feeling this way. Do you at least understand why an atheist would object to it? Let me put it this way: Although I am not an atheist, I can understand Theodore Roosevelt’s objection, about 1906, to the addition of the inscription “In God We Trust” to coins. (It did not appear on currency until Eisenhower’s presidency; in 1957.) Roosevelt claimed it was a trivialization; he was not an atheist. Perhaps Eisenhower could have raised the same objection in 1957. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/109 "2016-04-06T21:32:39Z")
Are we sure they led the pigeons to the flag? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/110 "2016-04-06T22:26:05Z")
Who knew Red Skelton needed a white knight? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/111 "2016-04-06T22:30:30Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Let me put it this way: Although I am not an atheist, I can understand Theodore Roosevelt’s objection, about 1906, to the addition of the inscription “In God We Trust” to coins. (It did not appear on currency until Eisenhower’s presidency; in 1957.) Roosevelt claimed it was a trivialization; he was not an atheist. Perhaps Eisenhower could have raised the same objection in 1957. And you have trouble understanding why people have an issue with using Red Skelton’s argument? I’m not following your reasoning. And who cares what Ike _could have done_? The fact that he didn’t make the argument doesn’t invalidate it. Your post wasn’t a simple disagreement. You said you didn’t understand why anyone would object to it. Since you appear to understand the point what did you mean by what you wrote? ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/112 "2016-04-06T22:41:07Z")
I mean I see both sides of the argument. But I don’t see any reason to make the kind of negative appraisal Hajario did. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/113 "2016-04-06T22:48:26Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I mean I see both sides of the argument. But I don’t see any reason to make the kind of negative appraisal Hajario did. As opposed to saying that I wanted to strangle him with a chain? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/114 "2016-04-07T00:10:19Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > Are we sure they led the pigeons to the flag? Don’t be disingenuous; you know damn well we can’t be sure. Because it’s _invisible_. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/115 "2016-04-07T00:24:33Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > As opposed to saying that I wanted to strangle him with a chain? Cute. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/116 "2016-04-07T00:43:07Z")
He is, isn’t he. I would love him and pet him and call him George. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/117 "2016-04-07T05:05:03Z")
But he don’t move no more? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![BrassyPhrase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea666f/32.png) [@BrassyPhrase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrassyPhrase)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995/118 "2016-04-07T06:03:11Z")
No one has referenced this short story? > **[The Children's Story](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Children%27s_Story)** > > "The Children's Story" is a 4,300-word dystopian fiction novelette by James Clavell. It first appeared in Ladies' Home Journal (October 1963 issue) and was printed in book form in 1981. It was adapted by Clavell himself into a thirty-minute short film for television which aired on Mobil Showcase. > The story takes place in an unnamed school classroom in the United States, in the aftermath of a war between the US and an unnamed country. It is implied that America has been defeated and occupied. The... I graduated h.s. in 87. Every morning we were still expected to stand up and say it. Frankly, we mostly ended up doing other things and mumbling. I’m a right hander, but would always be finishing my physics homework with my right. (So I’d put my left hand on my heart.) The teacher could not have cared less. Two years earlier in a history class, the teacher (one of the best I’ve ever had) taught us that you can’t be forced to say it. (I want to think it’s b/c of Jehova’s Witnesses?) And this one girl refused to do it in her homeroom and got sent to the office. I think she originally was given detention and then he argued with the principal over it, and she didn’t. It can mean a lot. Or it can mean nothing. In a school where you barely have time to learn, why waste time on it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-to-stop-requiring-students-to-recite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-in-school/750995.md?page=5)