# It's Ulster Day! \[09-29-2012\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 29, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ulster-day-09-29-2012/636249 "2012-09-29T19:53:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ulster-day-09-29-2012/636249/41 "2012-10-14T02:06:07Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I think it illustrates that neither group can be accused of living the high life over the other when you look at the context across the whole island. Even the border between NI/ROI is apparently somewhat porous, and those Prod farmers weren’t subjugating anybody. I don’t think it illustrates that at all. I’ve already shown how the treatment of the Catholic minority in the north diverged from the treatment of the Protestant minority in the South. I won’t keep flogging that horse but I do recommend you read, and I’ve recommended to others on here before, [_Making Sense Of The Troubles_](http://www.amazon.com/Making-Sense-Troubles-Conflict-Northern/dp/1561310700) which I think is an excellent primer on the Troubles and its causes. > [@](#): > > Side note - the “Ulster-Scots language” is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen, I saw it on some NI government pamphlets and was giggling like a little kid the rest of the day. This I can agree on. I mean I think it’s a rich dialect, [here’s a lovely documentary with some old school speakers of it](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT0mLLQkSMc) in it, but officialising it has made it a bit of a laughing stock. It’s part of the political balancing act of NI that if the Republicans have their own language (Irish Gaelic) then the Unionists have to have theirs too because y’know funding and the like. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ulster-day-09-29-2012/636249/42 "2012-10-14T03:26:00Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > I don’t think it illustrates that at all. I’ve already shown how the treatment of the Catholic minority in the north diverged from the treatment of the Protestant minority in the South. I won’t keep flogging that horse but I do recommend you read, and I’ve recommended to others on here before, [_Making Sense Of The Troubles_](http://www.amazon.com/Making-Sense-Troubles-Conflict-Northern/dp/1561310700) which I think is an excellent primer on the Troubles and its causes. Thanks, I’ve put that book on my reading list. At the moment I’ve been reading Kevin Myers’ “[Watching the Door](http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/apr/19/featuresreviews.guardianreview4)”, believe it or not. Have you read that one? I freely admit to having some knee-jerk bias in favor of the Protestant side since my family left Quebec due to an essentially sectarian, French Catholic/English Protestant low-level conflict fluffed up with fake “liberation” talk (in my opinion). Furthermore I have known a few Canadian Orangemen and enjoyed their company, without really getting into politics, so I don’t “get” their notorious reputation either. I understand though that others have very very different perspectives. (and Mary Duff is like my favorite singer too.) 🙂 > [@An\_Gadai](#): > > This I can agree on. I mean I think it’s a rich dialect, [here’s a lovely documentary with some old school speakers of it](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT0mLLQkSMc) in it, but officialising it has made it a bit of a laughing stock. It’s part of the political balancing act of NI that if the Republicans have their own language (Irish Gaelic) then the Unionists have to have theirs too because y’know funding and the like. 🙂 Thanks again, that’s a very nice film and the German subtitles actually help even though I don’t speak German! ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ulster-day-09-29-2012/636249/43 "2012-10-14T03:39:37Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Thanks, I’ve put that book on my reading list. At the moment I’ve been reading Kevin Myers’ “[Watching the Door](http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/apr/19/featuresreviews.guardianreview4)”, believe it or not. Have you read that one? > > I freely admit to having some knee-jerk bias in favor of the Protestant side since my family left Quebec due to an essentially sectarian, French Catholic/English Protestant low-level conflict fluffed up with fake “liberation” talk (in my opinion). Furthermore I have known a few Canadian Orangemen and enjoyed their company, without really getting into politics, so I don’t “get” their notorious reputation either. I understand though that others have very very different perspectives. (and Mary Duff is like my favorite singer too.) 🙂 I don’t really know enough of the Quebec situation to comment but my impression is its woes have a different wellspring to that of NI. Although Catholics and Protestants were involved in both I’m not sure how much either situation had or has in common, surely Quebec’s issues are more related to language as social identifier than religion in particular? No? Hey I’ve no doubt there are nice Orangemen here too, but it’s still not an organisation I like nor think as currently constituted has a place in modern society. I’ve not read that Myers book and I’m not sure I would, I’ve always disliked his newspaper columns! He strikes me as akin to shock jocks on the radio. > [@](#): > > Thanks again, that’s a very nice film and the German subtitles actually help even though I don’t speak German! Yeah I even found myself resorting to the German subtitles on occasion. The dialect those men spoke is not a million miles away from that my uncles speak and my dad spoke at home but it’s a little bit hard to comprehend especially if I’m not completely concentrating on it. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ulster-day-09-29-2012/636249/44 "2012-10-14T04:13:28Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > I don’t really know enough of the Quebec situation to comment but my impression is its woes have a different wellspring to that of NI. Although Catholics and Protestants were involved in both I’m not sure how much either situation had or has in common, surely Quebec’s issues are more related to language as social identifier than religion in particular? Language is one of the big trigger points in Quebec but the issues go way beyond that and have roots in the colonization period… an “outsider” can speak French until they’re blue in the face and all it does is dig them into a deeper hole. Quebecois are great people but the sensitivity over historical issues is… _wow_. And when it spills over into the political arena, then watch out. [Here’s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TncdhLGjFTE) a bit of lowbrow stereotypical comedy about Quebec… > [@An\_Gadai](#): > > I’ve not read that Myers book and I’m not sure I would, I’ve always disliked his newspaper columns! He strikes me as akin to shock jocks on the radio. Yeah that definitely describes the book! It’s got some unforgettable imagery though, I’ll give it that. It reads like one of those trippy Oliver Stone movies. I really don’t care about his sexual prowess, though. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ulster-day-09-29-2012/636249/45 "2012-10-14T04:45:26Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Language is one of the big trigger points in Quebec but the issues go way beyond that and have roots in the colonization period… an “outsider” can speak French until they’re blue in the face and all it does is dig them into a deeper hole. Quebecois are great people but the sensitivity over historical issues is… _wow_. And when it spills over into the political arena, then watch out. Yeah I saw that clip before, tabernac! Am I right in saying that Quebec is more “old world” than much of the rest of North America? Grievances on this island typically go back to 17th century and earlier. I liked in that review of Myers where they said that it was the only war ever where both sides were subsidised by one government! ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ulster-day-09-29-2012/636249/46 "2012-10-14T05:08:56Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Yeah I saw that clip before, tabernac! Am I right in saying that Quebec is more “old world” than much of the rest of North America? Grievances on this island typically go back to 17th century and earlier. I liked in that review of Myers where they said that it was the only war ever where both sides were subsidised by one government! Something a little more obscure? [Here’s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuHuHh0Hy7g) some full blown Quebec separatism for ya. 🆒 I’d agree that Quebec is old-word, it’s a bit of a cliche to call it the only European place in North America. It’s got unbreached fortress walls (Quebec City), sports hooligans (Montreal Canadiens), and a rural/feudal history by North American standards (look up [Seigneurs and Censitaires](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigneurial_system_of_New_France)) If you really want to make your head spin (it’s better than drugs), then throw the Native Indian issues into the mix too! ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ulster-day-09-29-2012/636249/47 "2012-10-14T05:20:26Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Something a little more obscure? [Here’s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuHuHh0Hy7g) some full blown Quebec separatism for ya. 🆒 > > I’d agree that Quebec is old-word, it’s a bit of a cliche to call it the only European place in North America. It’s got unbreached fortress walls (Quebec City), sports hooligans (Montreal Canadiens), and a rural/feudal history by North American standards (look up [Seigneurs and Censitaires](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigneurial_system_of_New_France)) > > If you really want to make your head spin (it’s better than drugs), then throw the Native Indian issues into the mix too! My French is just about good enough that I got what they were saying, more or less. I’ve read a lot about the Métis before and I recall some outside commentator pointing out that Quebec separatists have no real answer to First Nations separatists within Quebec. Y’all basically inherited a lot of the bullshit of Western Europe. Sorry. Also I want to visit [Grosse Ile](http://www.pc.gc.ca/lhn-nhs/qc/grosseile/index.aspx) at some point. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ulster-day-09-29-2012/636249/48 "2012-10-19T18:44:19Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > NB: you should probably go with Unionist. Loyalist is more loaded with paramilitary actions, just like if you call yourself Republican, you’d better check that you don’t mean Nationalist. > This has been mentioned in a thread recently and it was a shitstorm. Suffice it to say, whether this was a big deal or not, the events I assume you’re talking about happened almost 90 years ago. > True, although the problems both sides have with holidays is when it seems like it is done to be provocative rather than a simple event. > I am not an expert on this, but wouldn’t be surprised if there were some mutual support. [Peter Robinson](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19530845) is not a fan of either type of independence. > > And many in NI, mostly Protestants, are Scottish or Scots-Irish extraction. Any many in Scotland are descended from relatively recent Irish immigrants. Many fit into that specific ideology. Glasgow football is/was very sectarian. > You can, but that won’t happen just because you say it does. Even the orange+green flag is loaded. Good post. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ulster-day-09-29-2012/636249.md?page=2)