# It's unbelievably fucked up how normalized virginity shaming is in our culture **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 30, 2015, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163 "2015-10-30T08:46:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/21 "2015-10-30T15:47:17Z")
> [@GreenElf](#): > > By “not a choice”, as previously stated, it takes two to tango. Are you familiar with that phrase? The OP says: > [@PSXer](#): > > \*\*\*adult \*\*\*virginity is not a choice My emphasis. What does ADULTHOOD have to do with it? ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/22 "2015-10-30T15:48:02Z")
I also don’t understand what PSXer meant by “adult virginity is not a choice.” You mean adult virgins are not virgins by their own choice? I’m sure many are. Or you mean adult virginity is ridiculed to the point that it’s not widely accepted as a choice? In either case, that adult virginity is more ridiculed now than in the past sounds true. Like with most things, I blame social media. Everybody up in everybody’s business. And to the point that women are shamed for having many partners, I think that stigma is also starting to disappear. Still exists, but it’s more widely accepted than in the past. At least that’s my own observation. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/23 "2015-10-30T16:15:31Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > … what exactly is heteronormative about virginity? If one is so narrow in one’s definition that it must be PIV to be virginity, then sure. However, I’d say that sex qualifies as whatever those engaging in the activity consider it to be, within reason. If a gay, lesbian, trans, intersexed, or other type of person claims they’ve had sex, then as far as I’m concerned, they’re free to consider themselves no virgins. Hell, even a straight individual can consider themselves not a virgin for things other than PIV as far as I care. _You_ may be inclined to consider that Tommy and Jennifer are not virgins after he’s had his hands down her pants and fondled her to orgasm. But the conventional notion of what it means to no longer be a virgin would not designate this couple out of the virgin category. I’d go so far as to say that if either of them first claimed they were not virgins and then related the details to their peer group, they’d be laughed at for thinking they’d gone “all the way”. Or maybe not, maybe this has changed (?) … but at least historically this is how it was. The conventional standards for how to become a nonvirgin involve things that lesbians don’t tend to do with each other; things that lesbians do tend to do with each other aren’t (or weren’t) considered “real sex” when a boy and girl do them with each other. And thus it is heteronormative. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/24 "2015-10-30T16:16:33Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Why do people shame people for anything? Because it makes them feel good about themselves. People like believing that there’s at least one class of people that deserve to be ridiculed. The problem is shame as a verb has become incredibly commonly used in the past couple years and it has at least two divergent meanings. There are people (especially on the Internet) who very viciously and nastily attack innocent people in the cruelest way they know how, simply for having some attribute they dislike. That’s a great use of the word shaming and it’s pretty awful thing to do. Then on the other hand, there are people who want to believe they’ve been shamed any time someone expresses their believe that a certain status or attribute is better than the alternative. To these people, saying that being obese is a bad thing or that being a 40 year old virgin is undesirable is ‘shaming them’, when it’s not. The vast majority of adults are sexually active and consider it a healthy part of sexual development. It would be pretty awful to go around spotting virgins and attacking them for it, but how would we even do that? Hymen checking? But I don’t think we need to start pretending that sexual intercourse isn’t a normal part of adolescence and an appropriate part of maturation. If knowing most people feel that way makes adult virgins feel ashamed it’s their own issue. It’s got nothing to do with non-virgins making themselves feel better. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/25 "2015-10-30T16:24:29Z")
I think the OP is going to have to answer why he claims it is not a choice. My initial response was an attempt to put myself in PSXer’s shoes, which admittedly is a very difficult thing to do, especially given the topic. But as an empathetic person, I could suppose that someone that is extremely introverted, especially shy around people of the opposite sex, is concerned about the health, safety, or even moral implications of using a prostitute, could come to the conclusion that one’s virginity is not a choice but a factor of who they are that they can’t change. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/26 "2015-10-30T16:29:09Z")
I was a fairly late bloomer in this regard… at first (high school) it was more enforced than anything- I went to an all-boys high school and had little contact with girls. In college at first, it really was bumbling incompetence; I wanted to get laid, but literally had no clue how to go about it at all. And I don’t mean the actual screwing part, but rather the how do you chat up a girl, how do you read her signals, and so on. It didn’t help that girls that age are notoriously variable in what their signals are, and what their intentions are. One girl’s “let’s hop in the sack” come-on might be another (churchier) girl’s flirty banter, for example. Despite all this, I did have chances. Usually with girls who were suffering self-esteem problems and were obviously in some sort of emotional pain. I came to find out that a few had been molested as children, a couple were rape victims, and a few just had horrible home lives. But at any rate, there was something… deeply unarousing about availing myself of girls in that particular situation. By that point, I’d more or less decided that if it had taken me this long, I’d rather just wait and do it with someone who was interested in me, not someone looking to solve a problem of their own. Eventually, it did happen a little while after college, and several women later, I’m happily married with kids. Interestingly enough, I think after a certain point, it just wasn’t an issue to anyone but myself. Other than a few close college friends, I never really made an issue of it, and I think everyone just assumed I wasn’t a virgin throughout college. I put more pressure and self-loathing on myself than anyone external ever did, which I think is the ultimate corrosive effect of the non-directed or specific virgin-shaming that does exist. Kind of a “there must be something wrong with me if everyone else… even that loser over there… has done it and I haven’t.” feeling kind of situation, even though you intellectually know that you deliberately chose NOT to do it multiple times. In retrospect, I wonder if maybe I should have just bit the bullet and done it with one of the low self-esteem girls, if only to get it out of the way, and take all that pressure out of my subsequent dealings with women- in other words, to shoot the elephant in the room, rather than have him tag along for years to come. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/27 "2015-10-30T16:40:26Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > I think there’s greater choice involved than some involuntary adult virgins would like to admit. > > You (generic “you”) choose not to have sex with a prostitute. Or a woman with low self esteem ( now who’s shaming?) or one you’ve tricked in to it. So you want a high-quality partner. You have standards, and that’s why you have no choice. > > And here’s why that’s nonsense: if you aren’t attracting the kind of mate you desire, you absolutely have the choice to improve yourself by any means so the you CAN attract the type you are looking for. Whether that’s physical conditioning, education, expanding your interests or social circle, or seeking professional counseling for mental or emotional hurdles. > > It by some chance you’ve already gone down that checklist and crossed off everything, and you STILL are an involuntary virgin, then you can face that you’re not being realistic about the type of partner you can attract. And at that point, you’re going to have to reevaluate your mating criteria. For lack of I like button, I agree with this post. With very rare exceptions adult virgins have made choices which have given them that outcome. Don’t see a need to shame them though. [Not accusing Sicks Ate of shaming - just replying to the op’s statement] ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/28 "2015-10-30T17:08:16Z")
There’s a thread about this from several months ago: > **[Why is virgin-shaming still acceptable in society?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=756136)** > > Society now considers “fat-shaming” and “slut-shaming” unacceptable - along with many other forms of shaming - but it seems that mocking someone for being a virgin still remains widely acceptable. The idea seems to be that virginity at an old age... ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/29 "2015-10-30T17:10:43Z")
How on earth does anyone know that anyone else is a virgin? It’s not like your earlobes detach when you’ve had sex. Here’s August West’s guide to avoid being shamed as an adult virgin: If a person asks if you are a virgin, say “How is that your business?” or “Fuck off”, whichever feels organic in the situation. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/30 "2015-10-30T17:16:16Z")
> [@August\_West](#): > > How on earth does anyone know that anyone else is a virgin? It’s not like your earlobes detach when you’ve had sex. > > Here’s August West’s guide to avoid being shamed as an adult virgin: > If a person asks if you are a virgin, say “How is that your business?” or “Fuck off”, whichever feels organic in the situation. Precisely. However I think the the OP might be referring more to the way society views late life virgins and thus makes him feel bad about himself. I would certainly hope an adult would answer the question of their virginity with a resounding “fuck off”. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/31 "2015-10-30T17:45:17Z")
I think the unspoken assumption is if you are a virgin you must either be really undesirable or have some personality issue that scares people away. I think people are more shaming that. However I’ve known some deeply fucked up non virgins so that is bunk. Plus I’ve never understood why if you marry someone at 18 and have the same sex partner your while life that is OK. One sex partner is OK, none is to be shamed. A virgin can always rent a hooker, it won’t change anything except maybe help them realize sex is generally overrated. I think it is more people in their teens and twenties who do the shaming. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/32 "2015-10-30T17:59:13Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > The problem is shame as a verb has become incredibly commonly used in the past couple years and it has at least two divergent meanings. > > There are people (especially on the Internet) who very viciously and nastily attack innocent people in the cruelest way they know how, simply for having some attribute they dislike. That’s a great use of the word shaming and it’s pretty awful thing to do. > > Then on the other hand, there are people who want to believe they’ve been shamed any time someone expresses their believe that a certain status or attribute is better than the alternative. To these people, saying that being obese is a bad thing or that being a 40 year old virgin is undesirable is ‘shaming them’, when it’s not. As with anything, it depends on how a sentiment is expressed. Fat Person: “I wish people would stop giving me a hard time about being obese.” Non-fat Person: “What do you want us to say? You want us to say it’s okay to be a fat-ass? Well, it’s not. It’s a bad thing to be.” Adult virgin: “I wish people would stop giving me a hard time about my lack of experience.” Non-adult virgin: “What do you want us to say? You want us to say it’s okay to be a virgin? Well, it’s not. It’s a bad thing to be.” These are shaming responses. But this isn’t. Adult virgin: “I wish people would stop giving me a hard time about my lack of experience.” Non-adult virgin: “Yeah, people should stop giving you a hard time. I mean, being a virgin isn’t the most ideal place to be in necessarily, but anyone with two brain cells already knows this. Some people just feel the need to judge, that’s all.” > [@](#): > > The vast majority of adults are sexually active and consider it a healthy part of sexual development. It would be pretty awful to go around spotting virgins and attacking them for it, but how would we even do that? Hymen checking? But I don’t think we need to start pretending that sexual intercourse isn’t a normal part of adolescence and an appropriate part of maturation. If knowing most people feel that way makes adult virgins feel ashamed it’s their own issue. It’s got nothing to do with non-virgins making themselves feel better. The only people who should care about someone’s virginity are the people who are in an intimate relationship with said persons. A guy doesn’t need his buddies ragging on him about being a virgin, because his buddies aren’t the ones who are going to have to deal with his inexperience in the bedroom. It’s not their business what he is and isn’t doing sexually. I firmly believe a lot of the negative feelings people have about themselves comes from commentary from the well-meaning. If we want to be simplistic, we can blame individuals for taking to heart all the litte annoying comments they hear from others. But people are social creatures. Just as it is “natural” to have sex, it is also natural to be bothered by negative reactions to one’s current state. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/33 "2015-10-30T18:01:16Z")
> [@August\_West](#): > > How on earth does anyone know that anyone else is a virgin? It’s a lot like the joke “An atheist, a vegan, and a crossfitter walk into a bar. I know it’s true because they told everyone in the first five minutes.” The adults who get ‘shamed’ for virginity are very often the ones who won’t stop talking about it, either they are religious zealots going on about purity or will rant your ear off about being ‘incel’ if you let them. Generally, if they spent as much effort on learning how to talk with people and risking getting rejected as they do on complaining, they wouldn’t be virgins any more. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/34 "2015-10-30T18:04:00Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > I would certainly hope an adult would answer the question of their virginity with a resounding “fuck off”. If only they could…therein lies the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/35 "2015-10-30T18:05:29Z")
Did you see the 40 year old virgin? Did you laugh? That’s a lot of pressure right there. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/36 "2015-10-30T18:05:38Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > I think there’s greater choice involved than some involuntary adult virgins would like to admit. > > You (generic “you”) choose not to have sex with a prostitute. Or a woman with low self esteem ( now who’s shaming?) or one you’ve tricked in to it. So you want a high-quality partner. You have standards, and that’s why you have no choice. > > And here’s why that’s nonsense: if you aren’t attracting the kind of mate you desire, you absolutely have the choice to improve yourself by any means so the you CAN attract the type you are looking for. Whether that’s physical conditioning, education, expanding your interests or social circle, or seeking professional counseling for mental or emotional hurdles. > > It by some chance you’ve already gone down that checklist and crossed off everything, and you STILL are an involuntary virgin, then you can face that you’re not being realistic about the type of partner you can attract. And at that point, you’re going to have to reevaluate your mating criteria. Well said! This is absolutely true. The one thing I’d add to it is that it isn’t going to fall into your lap - you have to go out and put in some work meeting people and getting some degree of dating experience. If you’re not willing to take any old closing time skank home, then you have to be able to hold your own in some kind of dating/social scenarios. ---
**Author:** ![The\_wind\_of\_my\_soul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@The\_wind\_of\_my\_soul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_wind_of_my_soul)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/37 "2015-10-30T18:12:53Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > These are shaming responses. But this isn’t. > > Adult virgin: “I wish people would stop giving me a hard time about my lack of experience.” > Non-adult virgin: “Yeah, people should stop giving you a hard time. I mean, being a virgin isn’t the most ideal place to be in necessarily, but anyone with two brain cells already knows this. Some people just feel the need to judge, that’s all.” I guess to each his own. I certainly would not have appreciated someone saying the above to me back when I was a virgin. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/38 "2015-10-30T18:37:04Z")
I am 32, male, and have only been sexually active for about a year and a half. Before then, I hadn’t even been kissed. The reason was purely shyness. I would say that my adult virginity was partially a choice. Until my mid-twenties, I was content to wait. By the time I was around 27, though, I started to worry that I had missed my chance and would _never_ get laid. Over the next few years, I became increasingly anxious about it. During those years, it felt like a trap I had fallen into. I had told myself I didn’t believe in the concept of virginity. But by the time I finally did have sex, it was a huge relief, if only because I had been so worried about it. So in the end, losing my virginity mattered a lot to me. Also, sex (with the right person) is _awesome_. I still sometimes find myself thinking _I can’t believe how much fun this is. Why the hell did I ever wait so long?_ And I do feel a bit more manly now that I am sexually active. But I am not ashamed of my long virginity, and I don’t think other adult virgins should feel shame. I feel a lot of love and sympathy for other people who are in the same situation I was in. If you are an adult virgin, especially of the straight male variety, I would recommend you get in touch with the woman who runs this site: [www.beopenandhonest.com](http://www.beopenandhonest.com) . She is amazing, and helped me a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/39 "2015-10-30T18:51:07Z")
> [@August\_West](#): > > How on earth does anyone know that anyone else is a virgin? It’s not like your earlobes detach when you’ve had sex. > > Here’s August West’s guide to avoid being shamed as an adult virgin: > If a person asks if you are a virgin, say “How is that your business?” or “Fuck off”, whichever feels organic in the situation. This doesn’t address the issue. It puts the burden on the one being virgin-shamed to change their behavior rather than the one doing the shaming. ---
**Author:** ![Turpentine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Turpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turpentine)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/40 "2015-10-30T18:56:08Z")
I’ve never heard anyone shame a woman for being a virgin. Guys, however- it’s an old standby to insult a manchild or Men’s Rights Activist by making jokes about him being a virgin. And I don’t really have a problem for this oldie-but-goodie jab when it’s directed at them. The joke is supposed to imply that these men are so unattractive to women that they’re all virgins. I still think there’s some truth to it, though- Women almost never find these guys attractive, and they deserve to be taken down a couple of notches, anyway 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163.md?page=3)