# It's unbelievably fucked up how normalized virginity shaming is in our culture **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 30, 2015, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163 "2015-10-30T08:46:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/81 "2015-10-31T18:40:23Z")
I think part of it may be that it does bother you. I don’t remember your gender, but do you want relations with the other sex? Do you find them attractive? Do you feel excited when you see attractive members of the other gender and wish you could hook up with them? If you don’t, then that’s fine. I don’t like sports. I think it’s a waste of time and I think sports fans are losers. If sports come up in conversation, I feel quite confident in my view and there’s nothing anyone can say that will make me feel bad about hating sports. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/82 "2015-11-01T00:43:59Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m at the phase in my life when everyone who is my age is married, actively trying to find a mate, or in the throes of a failed marriage. If I get invited to a social event, there is an expectation that I will have someone on my arm. When someone asks what I did over the weekend, there is an expectation that I will mention what “we” did. When I meet someone new or reconnect with an old acquaintance, quite frequently the first thing I am asked is if I’m seeing anyone and do I have any kids. People sit around the breakroom, talking about kids and relationship drama. I stand there and smile, never having anything to add to the conversation other than questions. No, you’re choosing to socialize in circles where that is what people do - you are definitely not the only person at 38 who isn’t dating and hasn’t in a long time or at all. Yes, there is a very common expectation that you should be actively looking for someone to ride the relationship escalator with and eventually end up married with 2.5 kids and a picket fence. Yes, people think it’s weird if you don’t live their life like they do, especially if what you do goes outside of societal norms. That doesn’t mean that it’s actually got anything to do with virginity per se, which is what this thread is talking about. How would you expect people to respond to you differently if you had hooked up with a girl experimentally in college (or college-age), then otherwise lived the same life you did now? If there would be no difference, then what they’re responding to is clearly not a perception that you’ve never had sex, but the fact that you don’t engage in relationships. What if you hit the bars for a month and had a one night stand, then continued living the same life. Do you think your interactions would change then? How would you expect people to respond to you differently if you dated and formed relationships now, but didn’t actually have sex in them? If there would be no difference, then what they’re responding to is clearly not a perception that you’ve never had sex, but the fact that you don’t engage in relationships. The virginity flag is a red-herring. I’m sure some people have asked, but it’s not because that’s one super-special thing that everyone suspects, but because you live a life that doesn’t match that of your peers, they want to find out why, and that’s a possible explanation. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/83 "2015-11-01T01:36:54Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > No, you’re choosing to socialize in circles where that is what people do - you are definitely not the only person at 38 who isn’t dating and hasn’t in a long time or at all. But people like this are rare, correct? I’m not choosing to be a rare duck. Rather, I am choosing to socialize with the people in my general vicinity, with whom I share many things in common. Sure, I could go find some late 30 somethings who don’t have any interest in the game either, but I don’t have any interest in building a relationship around this rather bland commonality. I don’t care to put that much energy into socializing. > [@](#): > > Yes, there is a very common expectation that you should be actively looking for someone to ride the relationship escalator with and eventually end up married with 2.5 kids and a picket fence. Yes, people think it’s weird if you don’t live their life like they do, especially if what you do goes outside of societal norms. That doesn’t mean that it’s actually got anything to do with virginity per se, which is what this thread is talking about. I disagree with you. See below. > [@](#): > > How would you expect people to respond to you differently if you had hooked up with a girl experimentally in college (or college-age), then otherwise lived the same life you did now? If there would be no difference, then what they’re responding to is clearly not a perception that you’ve never had sex, but the fact that you don’t engage in relationships. What if you hit the bars for a month and had a one night stand, then continued living the same life. Do you think your interactions would change then? I don’t grok your point at all. Maybe you can follow mine? _My_ point is that a virgin and a person who is inexperienced in relationships have the same taint on them. A guy whose only sexual experience is with a prostitute is seen in the similar pathetic light as the guy who has never gotten any _ever_. A woman whose last experience with sex was some behind-the-bleachers action in ninth grade band camp 20 years ago is perceived as being just as much “crazy cat ladyish” as the woman who has never gotten any _ever_. People don’t care about technical virginity–because technical virginity isn’t obvious. But folks sure as hell care about functional virginity. If you ain’t getting none and ain’t talking about getting any, people frequently assume _there’s something fucked up with you._ As long as the OP has nothing outward to show for his sexuality, he’s going to feel virginal. “Virgin” is shorthand. Can you understand that? > [@](#): > > How would you expect people to respond to you differently if you dated and formed relationships now, but didn’t actually have sex in them? If there would be no difference, then what they’re responding to is clearly not a perception that you’ve never had sex, but the fact that you don’t engage in relationships. Do you think the OP is miserable because he’s a virgin or because he doesn’t have a girlfriend to talk about, to indicate something positive about his sexuality? > [@](#): > > The virginity flag is a red-herring. I’m sure some people have asked, but it’s not because that’s one super-special thing that everyone suspects, but because you live a life that doesn’t match that of your peers, they want to find out why, and that’s a possible explanation. I’m wondering who you’re lecturing to. Because I have said nothing about “everyone” suspecting anything. Nor have I expressed confusion over why people have questioned me. It’s rather obvious why people do this. But thanks for the explanation anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Mikahw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Mikahw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikahw)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/84 "2015-11-01T02:08:36Z")
Where is someone supposed to locate these ‘women with low self-esteem’? Is there a convention in my area next week or something? Going to the grocery store and exchanging monetary units for items I want I understand. Fixing machinery I understand. But these hairless primates that infest every area of this giant ball of rock I’m standing on? They’re a complete mystery. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/85 "2015-11-02T15:39:33Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If you ain’t getting none and ain’t talking about getting any, people frequently assume _there’s something fucked up with you._ As long as the OP has nothing outward to show for his sexuality, he’s going to feel virginal. “Virgin” is shorthand. Can you understand that? Using ‘virgin’ as shorthand for ‘not actively pursuing or sexually/romantically interacting with your preferred gender in any way’ doesn’t make any sense, and fails as shorthand because, like here, you just end up having to explain it and overcome the confusion. It’s also really weird, because the majority of people who aren’t dating have actually had sex at some point, so aren’t virgins, and a lot of adult virgins (possibly the majority) actively date, they just have religious or other views that lead to them abstaining from sex. If you do anything out of the norm with your relationships, people assume there’s something fucked up with you, it’s not this one specific thing. People who date polyamorously and/or have open relationships, even though it’s kind of the opposite of this situation, get a lot of judgement from the picket fences and 2.5 kids crowd too. People who get married but don’t want kids get it too. People who stay single but have friends with benefits for their sexual side also get it. You can call each individual one a type of shaming, but it makes the idea that 'virginity shaming is an ‘unbelievably fucked up’ thing in our culture. > [@](#): > > Do you think the OP is miserable because he’s a virgin or because he doesn’t have a girlfriend to talk about, to indicate something positive about his sexuality? I think the OP is miserable because he has a major problem (or problems) that he is unwilling to address, and his problem(s) lead to him not being able to get into intimate relationships with members of the opposite sex. He clearly isn’t a person with little or no sexual/romantic/etc desire, or someone who abstains for religious or spiritual reasons, as he believes his virginity to be ‘not a choice’. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/86 "2015-11-02T16:17:19Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Women prefer the top 10% of men. They give the time of day to maybe the mid 50%. Anyone below that are the runts of the litter, the reject pile. So if you’re a heterosexual male and an adult virgin, by definition you’re a reject, just like a fat woman who men won’t service or will discriminate against is a reject. > > Notice my numbers are relative. A man who might be king of the town in a small town, sleeping with a dozen women, might not have a prayer of getting even a first date in, say, LA. > > It’s truth. And the OP is right. We shouldn’t shame people. Most of the reasons someone is a virgin are due to biological factors barely within their control. By definition for every person who is tall or a good earner there’s going to be several men who are shorter and/or poorer. And this is going to be the case even if all the men in your hypothetical sample are doing the best they can consciously do to be the best men they can be. It’s not truth, and it’s probably not mostly biological. I mean, I’m tall, handsome, deep voiced, smart, and all that stuff, and when I was single, I was overweight, but in a pro wrestler or football lineman kind of way- very burly and muscular while being overweight. Women were interested in me. I literally blew chances left and right because I either picked up on the (extremely obvious) signals and wasn’t interested, or picked up on more subtle signals and didn’t have a clue how to close the deal, or didn’t even pick up on even more subtle signals. THAT is why I was a virgin long after most of my friends and acquaintances had got that over with. The failure of thinking that there’s some small percentage of guys who are “desirable”, then some percentage of “acceptable”, and then some sort of huge crowd of schlubby losers who no chicks will want, is that even if that’s true, women grade out the same way- there’s that 10% of “hot” chicks, that 40% of “ok” girls, and then a lot of unattractive ones. Those schlubby losers can easily hook up with the homely fat girls… if they know what they’re doing and are willing. But they don’t, and aren’t for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/87 "2015-11-02T16:27:03Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > If you do anything out of the norm with your relationships, people assume there’s something fucked up with you, it’s not this one specific thing. People who date polyamorously and/or have open relationships, even though it’s kind of the opposite of this situation, get a lot of judgement from the picket fences and 2.5 kids crowd too. People who get married but don’t want kids get it too. People who stay single but have friends with benefits for their sexual side also get it. You can call each individual one a type of shaming, but it makes the idea that 'virginity shaming is an ‘unbelievably fucked up’ thing in our culture. I read all the posts. Yeah, lots of people will shame you for anything out of the norm. I don’t have any kids and don’t want any. I work in a very kid-friendly industry, actually for a charity that works with kids regularly. I don’t hate kids. but I get judged a lot and have been all my life for choosing not to have children. People who are going to judge, are going to judge for something. I get that. But I’m ok standing over here in my non child status. As for the relationship chats. There are just some relationship chats I won’t engage in, ever. Yes I am in one, and yes everyone knows, but for example, when the weekly (approximately) husband/boyfriend bashing starts I never participate. I’m sure there is some thought about this: “Oh, she thinks her husband is all that and a bag of potato chips”. I just don’t approve of the behavior and don’t think it’s a good idea. I just don’t think people think about other people that much. Full disclosure: sure, I have wondered about people’s sex lives from time to time. In my case, it goes back to the husband-bashing: when you bash your husband that much, I wonder sometimes what your sex life is like. If you can’t even talk about him civilly, then how could you sleep with him? But the thoughts are brief and fleeting, and I don’t go into any detail. People are generally so full of their own insecurities, thoughts about themselves, or empty heads, that I don’t really think others factor highly in their heads. You say, **monstro** , that some people have directly asked you. Well, some people are downright rude! ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/88 "2015-11-02T17:50:55Z")
On the same note, would anyone shame a guy for having a small penis? Its inherently funny, but in the same way someone’s born crippled. They have no control over it, neither does the small penis guy, but its assumed that women would not only shame a guy but would be ok to walk out on him if she can’t be satisfied sexually. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/89 "2015-11-02T18:06:30Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > On the same note, would anyone shame a guy for having a small penis? Its inherently funny, but in the same way someone’s born crippled. They have no control over it, neither does the small penis guy, but its assumed that women would not only shame a guy but would be ok to walk out on him if she can’t be satisfied sexually. IIRC there was a pretty famous case of this within the past few years – a woman dumped her boyfriend and posted some unflattering things about his penis size online. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/90 "2015-11-02T18:26:24Z")
> [@PSXer](#): > > adult virginity is not a choice How can it not be a choice if you deliberately did not screw? You are not forced [at least in my culture] to marry and screw. There are, I suppose, arguments if you are a member of a culture that practices forced marriage - but then if your husband does not have sex with you, it would have been _his_ choice not to screw. To be perfectly crude about it - if you are a male that is simply to shy or feel too ugly to get a sex partner, there are countries in the world where prostitution is legal and you could go there to get laid. In general, most women don’t have issues getting laid - to be even cruder about it as the wife of a guy on my husband’s first boat mentioned more than once she had fantasies about getting gang raped by a bike gang [though I don’t think that sounds fun or healthy or safe, whatever gets her jollies off…] putting yourself in an unsafe area where rape is a serious concern would get your cherry popped in an extreme manner. Me? I don’t care if you are virgin or not, if your boots aren’t under my bed, none of my damned business. I neither need to know nor do I really care to discuss it. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/91 "2015-11-03T00:38:26Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > In 2015? I don’t think so, homey. Depends on your culture. And some they do more than shame, they stone. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/92 "2015-11-03T16:15:50Z")
So your culture stones women who are not virgins? So every mother is stoned to death the minute after they give birth? That’s pretty fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![Abner\_Ravenwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Abner\_Ravenwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abner_Ravenwood)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163/93 "2015-11-03T16:38:18Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > IIRC there was a pretty famous case of this within the past few years – a woman dumped her boyfriend and posted some unflattering things about his penis size online. Patrick Moote. He made a documentary about it. [Unhung Hero](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UnHung_Hero) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-unbelievably-fucked-up-how-normalized-virginity-shaming-is-in-our-culture/736163.md?page=4)