# It's upsetting when other whites reveal their racism to me. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 20, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307 "2012-03-20T13:41:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307/241 "2012-04-02T11:15:36Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > There is almost nothing MORE American than immigration. I disagree or would need a cite for the claim that to most Americans, people who move here can never be American except by birth. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Are you familiar with Craig Ferguson? Would you, on seeing and hearing him, characterise him as “American” or as “Scottish”? I would respond to that by referring the answer to [Tommy Steele](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_j6mNKAdRQ) (start at 2.17), and specifically the phrase “Being an American is adding something, it isn’t subtracting”. America is a country of immigrants - just because someone came from somewhere else and retains their accent and aspects of their home country’s culture doesn’t mean that they aren’t also American. That is entirely the point of the rather cheesy Disney clip linked to. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307/242 "2012-04-02T13:18:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Are you familiar with Craig Ferguson? Would you, on seeing and hearing him, characterise him as “American” or as “Scottish”? He’s both; he’s a naturalized US citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307/243 "2012-04-02T14:23:36Z")
He’s Scottish in the same sense that Al Pacino is Italian. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307/244 "2012-04-02T14:52:40Z")
**monstro** wasn’t taking about naturalized citizens, so that’s a red herring. She’s taking about America-philes visiting from other countries. > [@monstro](#): > > If someone who was born and raised in England came to the States for a few years and decided to call themselves an American because they love the country that much, I wouldn’t want to rain on their parade. I’d let them hold on to that self-identification. But I wouldn’t identify that person as an American when referring to them. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307/245 "2012-04-02T14:57:17Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > He’s Scottish in the same sense that Al Pacino is Italian. I’d argue that Ferguson is more Scottish than Pacino is Italian. Ferguson was born in Scotland and moved to America when he was 21. Pacino’s ancestors were from Italy but Pacino was born in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307/246 "2012-04-02T15:10:07Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > He’s Scottish in the same sense that Al Pacino is Italian. Not quite. Pacino was born and raised in the US; Ferguson was born and raised in Scotland. ETA: Ninja’d. ---
**Author:** ![grateful\_mcgee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e480ec/32.png) [@grateful\_mcgee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grateful_mcgee)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307/247 "2012-04-02T15:52:41Z")
Without reading the rest of the topic, I’ll say that I sympathize. “I’m not racist, but…” Shut the fuck up, yes you are. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307/248 "2012-04-02T16:29:58Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Many Jews do not think people born from gentile mothers are Jewish. > > Are they anti-Semitic? > > It is rude to tell someone they shouldn’t identify as something that they feel strongly about. But just because something is a construct doesn’t mean it is totally arbitrary and free-form. If someone who was born and raised in England came to the States for a few years and decided to call themselves an American because they love the country that much, I wouldn’t want to rain on their parade. I’d let them hold on to that self-identification. But I wouldn’t identify that person as an American when referring to them. I wouldn’t perceive them as an American, because they don’t meet the rules for what constitutes an American shared by most Americans. Where I live in Alaska, many tribal members belong to clans, and because the clan line goes on only from the mothers side of the family, some of the clan members are white. For example, The mom married white, children from this union are still clan, grandma married white, children from this union are still clan… Also, for this tribe, clans are almost as important as tribe. My SO is part of the tribe, so I end up at tribal events. I find it confusing when people, I perceive to be white are so fully a part of clan and tribe. I imagine that they do not suffer from racism. Do these white native only self identify? As they are fully accepted by clan and tribe. Am I being racist in my perceiving them to be white? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307/249 "2012-04-02T16:31:34Z")
That depends on whether the tribes identify themselves as racial groups. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307/250 "2012-04-02T16:57:49Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That depends on whether the tribes identify themselves as racial groups. The tribal members have certificates of Indian blood to enroll for BIA purposes. And I imagine some of the white people have a degree of blood. But as far as the tribe and clan defining themselves racially, I am not really sure. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307/251 "2012-04-02T17:03:23Z")
> [@florez](#): > > Where I live in Alaska, many tribal members belong to clans, and because the clan line goes on only from the mothers side of the family, some of the clan members are white. > For example, The mom married white, children from this union are still clan, grandma married white, children from this union are still clan… > Also, for this tribe, clans are almost as important as tribe. > My SO is part of the tribe, so I end up at tribal events. > I find it confusing when people, I perceive to be white are so fully a part of clan and tribe. > I imagine that they do not suffer from racism. > Do these white native only self identify? As they are fully accepted by clan and tribe. > Am I being racist in my perceiving them to be white? What you’re describing is almost exactly how blond-haired, blue-eyes Jews like me came to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307/252 "2012-04-02T17:09:18Z")
Interbreeding with Inuit? ---
**Author:** ![RedWood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f08c70/32.png) [@RedWood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedWood)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307/253 "2012-04-02T17:17:00Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > I’m not “part” anything. I’m 100% fucking disgusted. This. Just this. Thanks, Diana. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307/254 "2012-04-02T18:00:35Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Interbreeding with Inuit? I wouldn’t be surprised. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307/255 "2012-04-02T19:06:06Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > What you’re describing is almost exactly how blond-haired, blue-eyes Jews like me came to exist. Well, **almost.** You can’t actually interbreed with humans, after all. But I believe there’s an ancient Ashkenazi technique for getting some foreign DNA inside the eggshell. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307/256 "2012-04-02T20:20:44Z")
In the interest of advancing science, I volunteer myself for interbreeding experiments with Scarlett Johannson. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307/257 "2012-04-02T20:29:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > In the interest of advancing science, I volunteer myself for interbreeding experiments with Scarlett Johannson. What a mensch! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307/258 "2012-04-02T22:11:32Z")
> [@florez](#): > > Where I live in Alaska, many tribal members belong to clans, and because the clan line goes on only from the mothers side of the family, some of the clan members are white. > For example, The mom married white, children from this union are still clan, grandma married white, children from this union are still clan… > Also, for this tribe, clans are almost as important as tribe. > My SO is part of the tribe, so I end up at tribal events. > I find it confusing when people, I perceive to be white are so fully a part of clan and tribe. > I imagine that they do not suffer from racism. > Do these white native only self identify? As they are fully accepted by clan and tribe. > Am I being racist in my perceiving them to be white? I understand what you are saying, but delineating the lines of membership to victimization is kind of a stretch. Presumably, there is more to being in a clan/tribe than experience with racism. There’s the culture and history and all that jazz. If someone were to say that I’m not really black because I can’t possibly have had the same experience with racism as someone who’s darker-skinned, I’d be pissed. Being black isn’t one particular experience–but it is especially not something that’s inherently tied to racism and tales of woe. That said, one reason why racism sucks is because it isn’t easy to “pass” under the radar when you find yourself around certain people. Most people can’t distinguish a random Jewish person from a gentile. But an anti-Semitic person will pick up on any clue and go to town with it. Last name ends in -stein? Ooh, you’re one of _them_, aincha? A person in a clan may be able to pass just fine 99% of the time. But as soon as a racist finds out about their roots, the white sheet comes out. Racism is irrational like that. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307/259 "2012-04-02T23:45:53Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I understand what you are saying, but delineating the lines of membership to victimization is kind of a stretch. Presumably, there is more to being in a clan/tribe than experience with racism. There’s the culture and history and all that jazz. > > If someone were to say that I’m not really black because I can’t possibly have had the same experience with racism as someone who’s darker-skinned, I’d be pissed. Being black isn’t one particular experience–but it is especially not something that’s inherently tied to racism and tales of woe. . I am not in disagreement here. My family are all born and raised in U.S. We are Mexican American. I have heard a light skinned family member get angry for being mistaken as a white, and another light skinned family member hear the same type of -I thought you were white- comment, and decide it was a compliment. Then, I compare this with the very dark skinned family members, that have been racially profiled, threatened with deportation, accosted for a green card (they are citizens), heard every racial slur imaginable…even though all of our family members have similar culture, history, language, “and all that jazz”, it seems that some of us attract more racist attention. Being Mexican American is not just one particular experience either, but IMO, the darker family members suffer from more racism. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307/260 "2012-04-03T00:18:58Z")
> [@florez](#): > > Being Mexican American is not just one particular experience either, but IMO, the darker family members suffer from more racism. [Mexico](http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul/05/world/la-fg-mexico-racism-20100705) has similar issues apparently: > [@](#): > > But the full truth is that racism is alive and well in Mexico. It is primarily directed at indigenous communities who account for as many as 11.3 million people, or roughly 10% of the national population. The indigenous remain disproportionately mired in poverty and denied work, political access, education and other rights. > > And there is a smaller community of black Mexicans, Afro Mexicanos, many descendants of slaves first brought to the region by Spanish conquerors in the 16th century. > > Often referred to by academics as the “third race” and concentrated in the coastal states of Veracruz, Oaxaca and Guerrero, they have been fighting for years for recognition as a distinct ethnic group, to be included in history books and to be given opportunities to transcend poverty. > > “Racism in Mexico is covered up,” said Ricardo Bucio, head of the National Council for the Prevention of Discrimination, which has protested the blackface TV caricatures. “There is a lot of denial about it.”… > > The issue of racism in Mexico exploded a few years back when then-President Vicente Fox, in what was meant to be a defense of Mexican immigration to the United States, told a U.S. audience that Mexican immigrants were necessary because they performed the jobs that “not even blacks” wanted to do. Also, I’m not sure how representative these views are but it seems hispanic immigrants have less favorable views towards african-americans than whites do: > [@](#): > > In fact the Latino respondents, many of them immigrants from Mexico and Central America, actually reported higher negative feelings toward blacks than most native-born whites. Nearly 60 percent reported feeling that few or almost no blacks were hard-working or could be trusted, while only 10 percent of whites held that view. > **[Opinion | In Florida, a Death Foretold (Published 2012)](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/opinion/sunday/a-native-caste-society.html?_r=2&src=rechp)** > > Caste is alive and well in this country, where a still unsettled multiracial society is emerging from a starkly drawn social order. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-upsetting-when-other-whites-reveal-their-racism-to-me/616307.md?page=14)