# ITT I pit people who try to debate theology ignorantly **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2005, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itt-i-pit-people-who-try-to-debate-theology-ignorantly/288133 "2005-02-03T06:05:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itt-i-pit-people-who-try-to-debate-theology-ignorantly/288133/61 "2005-02-04T17:27:28Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > It was not something predicted by scripture. This is a huge reason that the Jesus movement did not catch on with Jews but with converted Gentiles who could be more easily “instructed” as to the definition and scriptural expectations of _Ho Christos_. Would this explain the nearly laughably inept “prophecies” of Jesus the evangelists found in the OT? They wouldn’t work for any learned Jew, who would point to their having been taken out of context and shoehorned into the life of Jesus (and vice versa), but would seem plausible to someone coming from outside Judaism. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itt-i-pit-people-who-try-to-debate-theology-ignorantly/288133/62 "2005-02-04T17:36:24Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Would this explain the nearly laughably inept “prophecies” of Jesus the evangelists found in the OT? They wouldn’t work for any learned Jew, who would point to their having been taken out of context and shoehorned into the life of Jesus (and vice versa), but would seem plausible to someone coming from outside Judaism. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itt-i-pit-people-who-try-to-debate-theology-ignorantly/288133/63 "2005-02-04T18:01:16Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > I’m not a friggin’ mind-reader. I respond to what is written. However, as a member who has been here for 2 1/2 years who feels fully confident to plunge into a religious discussion, it would seem that you would have taken the time to know _what has been written_ by such prolific posters as **Diogenes** and **Polycarp** , thus limiting your embarrassment when you accuse a person who has expressed actual antipathy to biblical literalism and has discussed the issues of evidence on several occasions (although perhaps reaching a conclusion different than yours) of not bothering to inform himself. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itt-i-pit-people-who-try-to-debate-theology-ignorantly/288133/64 "2005-02-04T18:51:55Z")
> [@Othersider](#): > > When I was younger and less realistic, I never doubted the existence of God. When I was confronted with the idea of atheism, I believe I rejected it much like most people reject pigs flying. I was pressed to admit that I did not, in fact, know for certain that God exists. In having subsequent discussions with atheists, I have been reminded of the same thing. Not sure I get the point you’re trying to make here. As someone born and raised in Franco’s 60s Spain to a traditionally conservative Catholic family – though I must admit in my parents case their Catholicism was mostly nominal – I can assure you that it wasn’t for lack of indoctrination that I turned out to be an atheist/agnostic. Point I am trying to make is that it appears to me that some of us simply lack the “gift of faith” and can thus see through the obvious contradictions, absurdities, and assorted – sorry, but I have no other way of putting this – pablum that passes for religious doctrine. In fact, many of same objections I had when I was taught The Cathechism - by Jesuits no less – still hold true to this day. To put it simply I was never able to take The Leap Of Faith as The Wall Of Reality kept getting in the way. I’ll also leave it to the discerning reader to consider who’d be more willing to fall into your “flying pigs” analogy. 😉 > [@](#): > > I once heard that it was some 90+% of the world that believes in God. In many of the circles that I frequent, the percentage seems much higher. At times, I have had the shoe on the other foot (the situation opposite of the one you mention in your first sentence here), so I think it just depends on the place and the people you’re talking to. Someone else has already tackled the main thrust of this (false) claim, just wanted to add that you’d also have to factor in the amazing number of intra-faith disputes as to how to _interpret_ the original teachings in order to see how far from any sort of “consensual God” religions really are. For instance, you’d be hard pressed to find much in common between Fundie Gods and Liberal Gods – to the point where they are mutually exclusive. And again, this is only looking at it from an _intra-faith_ perspective. Hmm… lemme take a stab (just for **Lib** ;)) at this: could it be that you’re all simply guessing and hoping you’re right? > [@](#): > > Then again, maybe I’m just a bit peeved because I’ve had lots of people tell me, or post to me, that God doesn’t exist. **Even if I were a fundamentalist-type theist, I wouldn’t go around pontificating that God does certainly exist** , because obviously some people don’t believe he does and they have reasons to believe that. (my bolding) Then you wouldn’t be a “fundamentalist-type theist” now would you? 😛 > [@](#): > > Maybe if I hung around more fundamentalist theists I’d be less turned-off by the opposite perspective, because I’d be beefing with them too. The fact is I don’t have that many friends and relatives that are of the fundamentalist type, so more often than not, the unprovable dogma that gets thrown in my face is the attitude of strong atheism. Question for you: outside this message board/internet, can you tell us how many times you’ve been accosted by fire-breathing atheists trying to er… de-convert you? If you’d like, I’d be more than willing to give you the reverse answer to that question. Sort of like comparing notes… ---
**Author:** ![Othersider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cab0a1/32.png) [@Othersider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Othersider)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itt-i-pit-people-who-try-to-debate-theology-ignorantly/288133/65 "2005-02-05T08:03:36Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Not sure I get the point you’re trying to make here. As someone born and raised in Franco’s 60s Spain to a traditionally conservative Catholic family – though I must admit in my parents case their Catholicism was mostly nominal – I can assure you that it wasn’t for lack of indoctrination that I turned out to be an atheist/agnostic. Point I am trying to make is that it appears to me that some of us simply lack the “gift of faith” and can thus see through the obvious contradictions, absurdities, and assorted – sorry, but I have no other way of putting this – pablum that passes for religious doctrine. It wasn’t about indoctrination, nor was it about the “gift” of faith, that made me come to that conclusion. It was more a matter of realizing what sort of evidence points to the existence of God. Basically, I realized that the only evidence that would _conclusively_ lead one to believe without a doubt that God exists, is entirely personal - and not empirical. All of the empirical evidence, as I see it (regardless of how you interpret it) is debatable. Ergo, I had to concede it was possible that all personal evidence people claim might be fabricated, and that it’s possible God doesn’t exist. That’s pretty much all I can surmise on the matter. > [@RedFury](#): > > I’ll also leave it to the discerning reader to consider who’d be more willing to fall into your “flying pigs” analogy. 😉 What’s that supposed to mean? > [@RedFury](#): > > Someone else has already tackled the main thrust of this (false) claim, just wanted to add that you’d also have to factor in the amazing number of intra-faith disputes as to how to _interpret_ the original teachings in order to see how far from any sort of “consensual God” religions really are. For instance, you’d be hard pressed to find much in common between Fundie Gods and Liberal Gods – to the point where they are mutually exclusive. And again, this is only looking at it from an _intra-faith_ perspective. If you mean **Marley23** , I responded to him. I admitted in my response that the information I found, in looking for some concrete data, suggests that it’s not an easy task at all and that many of the guesses by various persons or organizations might be way off. That said, I used the numbers provided by two separate sites to come to a conclusion that wasn’t irrational, even if it was a stab in the dark, and I was willing to admit that it might be way off. If indeed there was a column by the Straight Dope proffering that there a billion atheists in the world, I would like to see the numbers they used in obtaining that calculation. Unless I see something to the contrary, I will probably assume that my conclusion, arbitrary as it might be, is the best estimate I have (for reference, I estimated some 220 million atheists in the world). And if that is correct (which is obviously debatable), then my statement about 90+% of the world not being atheist is not false. And, as I also said in that post responding to him, I said that I used “God” in a general sense, not specifically referring to God as Christianity (and possibly some other faiths) refer to him. > [@RedFury](#): > > Hmm… lemme take a stab (just for **Lib** ;)) at this: could it be that you’re all simply guessing and hoping you’re right? From a personal standpoint (and I say this without intentionally pontificating), I believe that it’s difficult, if not impossible to accurately determine anything about God (if he exists). We can make many assumptions, some of which may be close or right on the mark, but it’s pretty hard to be _certain_ about anything about him, just as it’s pretty hard to be _certain_ whether or not he exists at all. Does that make any sense? > [@RedFury](#): > > Then you wouldn’t be a “fundamentalist-type theist” now would you? 😛 Definitely not (no offense to any of them). If I’m a theist, I’d like to think I’m a rational one. > [@RedFury](#): > > Question for you: outside this message board/internet, can you tell us how many times you’ve been accosted by fire-breathing atheists trying to er… de-convert you? If you’d like, I’d be more than willing to give you the reverse answer to that question. Sort of like comparing notes… On this message board? A couple of times. On other message boards? A few times. In real life? Rarely. It’s much easier to accost people from behind a firewall. 😉 On a serious note, I can imagine if you’ve ever been to any college where Christians are not a minority, and any number of other situations, I’m sure you’ve been confronted more times than I have. What does that prove? That you’ve been more oppressed than I have? If you have, I’m sorry. Maybe you and I can take a tour through my university when the fundies are out, and we can both tell them to stop bothering us, they aren’t going to change our minds. 😃 :smack: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itt-i-pit-people-who-try-to-debate-theology-ignorantly/288133.md?page=3)