# ⟨iu⟩ versus English **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 6, 2024, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iu-versus-english/998551 "2024-03-06T20:53:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iu-versus-english/998551/1 "2024-03-06T20:53:37Z")
A simple little pair of letters, ⟨ **iu** ⟩. Mysteriously, it’s all but invisible to English-speaking readers. My evidence for this? First is the overwhelming preponderance of ⟨ui⟩ in English. 'Cause if you cruise with quick guile and bruise fruit, you get juice. Our brains are programmed to see only ⟨ui⟩. I first noticed something was off back in 5th-grade history class. We were learning about Queen Liliʻuokalani. The textbook back in those days printed it without the ʻokina symbol. I read in my textbook “Liliuokalani” and heard the teacher pronounce it “Liliokalani.” I looked back at the word in the book and again heard the teacher say “Liliokalani.” Wondering, was I the only one who noticed the discrepancy? The martial art jiu-jitsu is practically the only familiar word in English with ⟨iu⟩. This invariably gets changed to jujitsu. In fact, that’s correct because the ⟨i⟩ is silent. The former spelling is a relic of an obsolete system of transliterating Japanese. So I think this example helped form the scales over the eyes hiding ⟨iu⟩ from English-speaking readers. The names _Giuliano, Giuliani_ (Italian equivalent of Julian) suffer greatly at the hands of English speakers. Mario Puzo wrote _The Sicilian_ about the famous brigand Salvatore Giuliano, but insisted on misspelling his name “Guiliano.” That only contributed to the problem. Look how, more often than not, Rudy Giuliani is misspelled as “Guiliani.” Once seen, cannot be unseen. I have to wonder how the name _Giuseppe_ has escaped the same fate. Or… _[has it?](https://youtu.be/eH68x75d2pk?si=WqBuQJPHaN_6yNPX)_ When Mariupol was in the news, invariably non-Ukrainians spelled and pronounced it either “Maripol” or “Marupol,” but ⟨iu⟩ may as well not exist. Looking over the names of Inuit tribal groupings, most of them end in ⟨miut⟩: Nunavimmiut, Iglulingmiut, Netsilingmiut. > Iñupiaq groups, in common with [Inuit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_language)-speaking groups, often have a name ending in “miut,” which means ‘a people of’. One example is the _[Nunamiut](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunamiut),_ a generic term for inland Iñupiaq [caribou](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribou_(North_America)) hunters. Cite: [Iñupiat#History](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%C3%B1upiat#History) I felt acutely aware of the cognitive dissonance an English-speaking reader might experience seeing all those -_miut_ names at once. The ⟨iu⟩ may then become impossible to ignore. It might, just might, be enough to make the scales fall from their eyes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iu-versus-english/998551/2 "2024-03-06T21:01:50Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > The martial art jiu-jitsu is practically the only familiar word in English with ⟨iu⟩. Podium? Helium? Opium? Lithium? Cranium? Aquarium? Tedium? Medium? Gymnasium? Sodium? Radium? Radius? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iu-versus-english/998551/3 "2024-03-06T21:05:09Z")
Ah, the old exception that proves the rule. I’m describing words that don’t end in -ium. When iu occurs in initial or non-final syllables. The familiarity of -ium is a fixed form. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iu-versus-english/998551/4 "2024-03-06T21:07:58Z")
Like “triumphant” or “diuretic”, say? ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iu-versus-english/998551/5 "2024-03-06T21:10:11Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > The familiarity of -ium is a fixed form It’s a borrowing from Latin, the neuter adjectival suffix. > **[\-ium | Etymology of suffix -ium by etymonline](https://www.etymonline.com/word/-ium)** > > "iron," aurum "gold," etc.). In late 18c chemists began to pay attention to the naming of… See origin and meaning of -ium. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iu-versus-english/998551/6 "2024-03-06T21:10:36Z")
There has to be some way to account for the pattern of iu-blindness in the examples I listed. My hypothesis is the way familiarity can program the brain to only see certain things and miss seeing others. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iu-versus-english/998551/7 "2024-03-06T21:14:28Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > There has to be some way to account for the pattern of iu-blindness in the examples I listed. Well, you may be a _genius,_ but you’re not exactly a _demiurge_. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iu-versus-english/998551/8 "2024-03-06T21:26:06Z")
**Johanna** , correct me if I’m wrong: What **Johanna** is talking about is the paucity of words in English (esp non-borrowed native vocabulary) in which the _spelling_ “iu” represents a single syllable’s _phonetic_ nucleus. Especially a stressed syllable, and especially in syllables that are not Latinate word endings. … The OP reminds me of **[former pro hockey goaltender Mike Liut](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QVjUvuSUF4)**, who spent his prime years with the St. Louis Blues and Hartford Whalers. But even Liut’s name was pronounced as two syllables. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iu-versus-english/998551/9 "2024-03-06T21:27:13Z")
Thank you, **bordelond**. You saved me from fumbling for the right words. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iu-versus-english/998551/10 "2024-03-06T21:32:53Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Thank you, **bordelond**. You saved me from fumbling for the right words . Your point is actually pretty subtle, and is challenging to grasp without a little phonetics in one’s back pocket. Thinking on your OP some more: native English phonotactics haven’t seemed to yield many singular syllabic nuclei spelled “io”, either. Common words like _lion_ use “io” to represent two syllabic nuclei, as you are aware. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iu-versus-english/998551/11 "2024-03-06T21:33:46Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > What **Johanna** is talking about is the paucity of words in English (esp non-borrowed native vocabulary) in which the _spelling_ “iu” represents a single syllable’s _phonetic_ nucleus. Especially a stressed syllable, and especially in syllables that are not Latinate word endings. Hmm. Would “prosciutto” count? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iu-versus-english/998551/12 "2024-03-06T21:34:46Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Hmm. Would “prosciutto” count? Borrowed from Italian, which is rife with “iu”. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iu-versus-english/998551/13 "2024-03-06T21:39:22Z")
For a similar example, with all the ghastly ghetto ghost lights, the two-letter combo ⟨gh⟩ is very familiar, but ⟨dh⟩ is completely foreign. That’s why everybody and their brother and their cousin keeps changing Gandhi to “Ghandi.” “Against stupidity, the ghods contend in vain” ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iu-versus-english/998551/14 "2024-03-06T21:49:54Z")
“⟨iu⟩ versus English”? iu is going to lose. Cite: the entire history of English. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iu-versus-english/998551/15 "2024-03-06T21:59:09Z")
All 31 non-capitalized words in the Moby Pronunciator file containing -iu-, excluding those with -ium (like helium) and -ius (like radius). > [@](#): > > aliunde > antiunion > arseniuretted > arseniuretted\_hydrogen > biunique > biuniquely > biuniqueness > demiurge > demiurgeous > diuresis > diuretic > diurnal > diurnally > diurnal\_arc > diurnal\_circle > diurnal\_epilepsy > echiuroid > hypercalciuria > jiujitsu > lunar-diurnal > piu > pollakiuria > prosciutto > sciurine > sciuroid > semidiurnal > triune > triungulin > triunitarian > wickiup > wikiup It seems as if in most of them, the _i_ and the _u_ are in separate syllables. The exceptions seem to be prosciutto, jiujitsu (both already mentioned in this thread), piu (“more,” in musical notation), echiuroid (a kind of worm), and arseniuretted (“combined with arsenic”). ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iu-versus-english/998551/16 "2024-03-06T22:05:19Z")
Perhaps ⟨iu⟩ is spelled yu or ju when you want to get the sound you mean? It comes close, but I admit it is not exactly the same. On a similar vein, Germans are incapable of saying ⟨eu⟩, the always pronounce it ⟨oi⟩ , like in Freud (Dr. Sigmund) or Freude. I guess that sound would have to be spelled ëu, but the letter ë is not on my German keyboard. Spelling rules sometimes have unintended consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iu-versus-english/998551/17 "2024-03-06T22:05:50Z")
Speaking of dh (which someone above did) reminds me that one spelling reform we should all agree on is that voiced th (as in this and that) logically ought to be spelled dh to distinguish dhem from the unvoiced ones (as in thin and thick). Old Norse had consonants eth and thorn to distinguish dhem. Does Icelandic still use dhose letters? ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iu-versus-english/998551/18 "2024-03-06T22:08:28Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Does Icelandic still use dhose letters? Yup. > **[Icelandic orthography](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_orthography)** > > The Icelandic orthography uses a Latin-script alphabet including some letters duplicated with acute accents; in addition, it includes the letter eth (⟨ð⟩, capital ⟨Ð⟩), transliterated as ⟨d⟩, and the runic letter thorn (⟨þ⟩, capital ⟨Þ⟩), transliterated as ⟨th⟩ (see picture); ⟨æ⟩ and ⟨ö⟩ are considered letters in their own right and not a ligature or diacritical version of their respective letters. Icelanders call the ten extra letters (not in the English alphabet), especially thorn and eth, sérí... ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iu-versus-english/998551/19 "2024-03-06T22:10:21Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > First is the overwhelming preponderance of ⟨ui⟩ in English. 'Cause if you **cruise** with quick **guile** and **bruise fruit** , you get **juice**. Looking at this more closely … “ui” itself seems to typically come from Medieval French borrowings – albeit borrowings with a long history of English usage. In the quote, “quick” is indeed a native English word. ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iu-versus-english/998551/20 "2024-03-06T22:24:40Z")
I just watched the K-drama _ **Hotel Del Luna** _ a few days ago, in which IU plays the main character, Jang Man Wol. This caused me to interpret the thread title _ **IU versus English** _ entirely incorrectly. I thought her pronunciation of the few English words in the show was pretty good. 🤪 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iu-versus-english/998551.md?page=2)