# I've been thinking a little about Determinism and Free will **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 30, 2004, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-been-thinking-a-little-about-determinism-and-free-will/266794 "2004-09-30T04:04:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-been-thinking-a-little-about-determinism-and-free-will/266794/21 "2004-09-30T14:55:41Z")
**Gyan** , yes, you’re right: non-locality is not ruled out (I believe M Theory makes some steps in this direction). However, I don’t see how your “will” _can_ be non-local. In any case, I think we’re talking past each other a little. My Oxford English Dictionary defines **determinism** : \*\*n.[/n] _Philosophy_ the doctrine that all events and actions are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Now, that to me incorporates some “[random](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probabilistic_algorithm)” element whether or not it is _truly_ random or just _appears_ so to us macroscopic 3-D, temporal beings. You seem to be using the word “deterministic” in the sense a [deterministic algorithm](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterministic_algorithm). If so, then of course I agree that “will” is “deterministic”. If I may ask, do you go along with my consideration of a “choice” as a _calculation_ having many inputs? If not, as **Aeschines** asked, what is _different_ when this “will” entity is introduced? ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-been-thinking-a-little-about-determinism-and-free-will/266794/22 "2004-09-30T15:07:55Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > However, I don’t see how your “will” _can_ be non-local. Just like entanglement. More seriously, with the theosophic/Buddhist basis, that all multiplicity is illusory. > [@](#): > > If I may ask, do you go along with my consideration of a “choice” as a _calculation_ having many inputs? Yes, I do. Choice is a label tagged onto certain junctures within streams of experience. With events before juncture tagged as ‘input’. Events of bodily/cognitive action afterward tagged as ‘action’ and some mystical moment in between, tagged as ‘choice made’. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-been-thinking-a-little-about-determinism-and-free-will/266794/23 "2004-09-30T15:15:01Z")
Quantum entanglement is _not_ an example of non-local hidden variables in my understanding. When you say that a “will” variable is “just like entanglement” are you alluding to Penrose and Hammeroff’s Quantum Consciousness or something? Again I ask, if a choice is a “calculation”, _why_ are you introducing a mystical element? What **difference** does it make? ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-been-thinking-a-little-about-determinism-and-free-will/266794/24 "2004-09-30T17:43:42Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Quantum entanglement is _not_ an example of non-local hidden variables in my understanding. Nor am I implying that. Just like relativity drilled into us that all communications take time, but entanglement defies that, the problem of resolving will as ‘non-local’ doesn’t seem like a showstopper. That’s all. > [@](#): > > Again I ask, if a choice is a “calculation”, _why_ are you introducing a mystical element? What **difference** does it make? Well, because functionally world seems dualistic. Their interface is adjudged mystical. As to difference, if free will doesn’t exist, then you live life with a different perspective than if it does. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-been-thinking-a-little-about-determinism-and-free-will/266794/25 "2004-09-30T19:23:54Z")
> [@](#): > > As to difference, if free will doesn’t exist, then you live life with a different perspective than if it does. Quite. Just as believers in astrology live _their_ lives with a different perspective. As with other threads, **Gyan** , I’m afraid I just don’t understand what consistent philosophy you are forwarding. I sincerely hope _you_ do. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-been-thinking-a-little-about-determinism-and-free-will/266794/26 "2004-09-30T19:54:51Z")
> [@II Gyan II](#): > > Of course, this contraption won’t hold water if you believe that the phenomenon of consciousness itself is a byproduct of the dynamics of certain arrangements of matter. What else \*could \* consciousness be? ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-been-thinking-a-little-about-determinism-and-free-will/266794/27 "2004-09-30T23:44:07Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > As with other threads, **Gyan** , I’m afraid I just don’t understand what consistent philosophy you are forwarding. What do you find inconsistent? Polerius, [panpsychism](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panpsychism/). ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-been-thinking-a-little-about-determinism-and-free-will/266794/28 "2004-10-01T00:22:25Z")
> [@II Gyan II](#): > > Polerius, [panpsychism](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panpsychism/). That link didn’t work for me, but I found this at [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpsychism) > [@](#): > > Panpsychism is the belief that mind, or consciousness, is omnipresent throughout the universe and is a fundamental aspect the universe So, what exactly is this “mind” or “consciousness” that is omnipresent throughout the universe? What is it made of? What does it derive from? What rules/laws does it operate on? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-been-thinking-a-little-about-determinism-and-free-will/266794/29 "2004-10-01T00:55:13Z")
While QM makes problems for strict determinism (in the sense that future states can be read in past ones), it doesn’t really add anything at all helpful in regards to the free will debate. That’s because the debate has still yet to get so far as to actually explain what the heck people mean when they say we have “Free Will.” Random elements don’t change the discussion much at all: if something is truly random, then it can’t have been willed: that would merely make the will a hidden variable that would then itself have to be accounted for. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-been-thinking-a-little-about-determinism-and-free-will/266794/30 "2004-10-01T02:47:38Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > So, what exactly is this “mind” or “consciousness” that is omnipresent throughout the universe? What is it made of? What does it derive from? What rules/laws does it operate on? ‘Mind’ is a stretch. Think of ‘consciousness’ as the ability of awareness. It is not made up of any simpler essence. That’s the point. Consciousness is primary and fundamental, not a higher-level emergence, like ‘energy’ is a fundamental property. It is crucial to understand what’s meant by ‘consciousness’ here. It refers to the ability itself, not a particular end-product. So, the observation that humans have such and such modalities as vision, audio, touch, emotions…etc pertains solely to a specific formation and is not being exported to all matter. All matter, by virtue of some property (maybe form), could fashion a mind. ‘Mind’ is like a jigsaw picture. What picture is formed depends on some (unknown) property, but the fact that the pieces exist is not a derivation of more basic laws, but as fundamental as existence. BTW, the Stanford link works for me. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-been-thinking-a-little-about-determinism-and-free-will/266794/31 "2004-10-01T09:27:54Z")
> [@II Gyan II](#): > > What do you find inconsistent? > > Polerius, [panpsychism](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panpsychism/). Thanks, my friend - that helps a lot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-been-thinking-a-little-about-determinism-and-free-will/266794.md?page=1)