# I've decided polygamy is an excellent way to raise a family **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 15, 2010, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218 "2010-10-15T05:53:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218/221 "2010-10-17T03:52:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > How about the fact that they don’t have equal rights, **Stoid**? Are yoiu ever going to address that? > > Still waiting for an answer. Can’t imagine why, I’ve addressed it many times. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218/222 "2010-10-17T04:24:52Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Right. You came to this conclussion seeing said family interviewed on _Oprah_. Mmkay. What’s your beef with Oprah, anyway? You sneer like she’s the television equivalent of a sleazy tabloid or something. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218/223 "2010-10-17T04:46:01Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > [ > > It even includes one wife who was raised completely apart from any poly influence of ANY kind, and her family was mortified by her choice to marry this way. So how you can possibly imagine that she did not make a free and informed choice to do this is beyond belief. As has been pointed out to you several times, every wife in the family comes from a “mormon-cult-poly” background. Here what I said a couple pages ago-"No, actually all the Brown wives were raised in that repressive religious fanatic culture "From LA Times review: “_…_.All three of the women were raised either in or surrounded by polygamist families " and as for the new wife” Robyn, … _explains that although she grew up in a polygamist family.._.. Apparently one of the wives- Janelle- was not part of a Poly family, but was raised in that cult and culture. Not every family in that cult is poly. " The italics are the quotes for the outside sources. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218/224 "2010-10-17T04:55:17Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > What’s your beef with Oprah, anyway? You sneer like she’s the television equivalent of a sleazy tabloid or something. She’s not? Wasn’t she the one that helped Jenny McCarthy spread her antivax bullshit, and promoted the hateful nonsense of _The Secret_? ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218/225 "2010-10-17T04:57:06Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > > [@Guinastasia](#): > > > > Right. You came to this conclussion seeing said family interviewed on _Oprah_. Mmkay. > > What’s your beef with Oprah, anyway? You sneer like she’s the television equivalent of a sleazy tabloid or something. … well, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218/226 "2010-10-17T06:22:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Stoid](#): > > > > [ > > > > It even includes one wife who was raised completely apart from any poly influence of ANY kind, and her family was mortified by her choice to marry this way. So how you can possibly imagine that she did not make a free and informed choice to do this is beyond belief. > > As has been pointed out to you several times, every wife in the family comes from a “mormon-cult-poly” background. Here what I said a couple pages ago-"No, actually all the Brown wives were raised in that repressive religious fanatic culture "From LA Times review: “_…_.All three of the women were raised either in or surrounded by polygamist families " and as for the new wife” Robyn, … _explains that although she grew up in a polygamist family.._.. Apparently one of the wives- Janelle- was not part of a Poly family, but was raised in that cult and culture. Not every family in that cult is poly. " > > The italics are the quotes for the outside sources. As you said to me: _Watch the show._ Because you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218/227 "2010-10-17T06:23:18Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > She’s not? Wasn’t she the one that helped Jenny McCarthy spread her antivax bullshit, and promoted the hateful nonsense of _The Secret_? Sigh… ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218/228 "2010-10-17T06:40:28Z")
Wow, thanks **Grumman**. I wasn’t aware that Oprah was an anti-vax supporter. A quick Google search revealed lots of that sentiment along with other assorted woo. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218/229 "2010-10-17T10:59:05Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > [ > > You are incorrect. They were very clear about it on Oprah, less so in the show, but there’s no question that no new wife can be added without the rest of the other wives approving. And the other wives did and do approve. And we have _no_ idea of what pressures the man exerted on the women to essentially force the issue. Have you ever lived with an abusive man? I have. I know what it is like to sit there and think to myself _am I nuts? How did I ever agree to “that”?_ ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218/230 "2010-10-17T14:03:18Z")
I think pretty much any family structure can be a great way to raise a family, _ **IF** _ you have mature, stable, responsible, dedicated, agreeable people who respect one another and prioritize the kids’ well-being over their own bullshit. But what percentage of people meet all those criteria? I don’t know, but I’d say 75% is a pretty generous estimate. The rules of probability mean your odds of everyone involved go down pretty significantly for every person you add. By the time you reach the scenario these reality show people are in, your chances of everybody involved being all these things is just shy of 24%. And those things are just the bare-bones basics of raising kids successfully–you haven’t even gotten into different child-rearing or discipline philosophies, or timing/spacing kids, or even the stupid piddly stuff like whether to get chunky or smooth peanut butter. It’s theoretically possible for such an arrangement to be happy and healthy and run smoothly, but the odds would seem to be greatly against it. And, of course, I have to think that “it’s a great way to raise kids” is fairly faint praise for a marriage–it says nothing at all about romance, or companionship, or physical/emotional care from your spouse. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218/231 "2010-10-17T14:24:12Z")
The other problem with it being “a great way to raise kids” is that unfortunately - like other non-traditional family structures - unless you live in an area where poly families are common, your kids living situation is going to be a reason for singling them out. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218/232 "2010-10-17T17:22:47Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > As you said to me: _Watch the show._ Because you’re wrong. That was Sarahfeena who said that, I think. But their self-serving claims are at odds to what the journalists uncovered. psst- people lie on relality TV. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218/233 "2010-10-18T00:33:03Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > > [@Sarahfeena](#): > > > > But even so, I never cried through my pregnancies or my wedding. I’m still skeptical that regular life should inspire so many tears. > > It’s not regular life. It’s pregnant and adding a new wife after sixteen years life. > And apart from that, you are obviously not a teary person, and that’s fine. I am, and I’m telling you: it does not mean that a person is miserable. You and your life experience are not the standard against which all people should be measured, nor am I. We are all different. These guys have been pregnant a total of…about 15 times between the three of them. That’s regular life. I agree that some people are more emotionally demonstrative than others, but the crying isn’t the only thing that makes me think that they’re not entirely happy. [QUOTE=Stoid] That’s not a really accurate way of stating what they are doing. Lots of things in life can make you feel both good and bad, and depending on the weight of each, you choose to have the thing or not. They have chosen to embrace the benefits of a polygamous life. It makes them happy and fulfilled. But it entails some sacrifice, too - it means dealing with jealousy. Having decided you want the benefits and you know that you are not impervious to feelings of jealousy, what are you going to do with it? Wallow? Bitch, complain, whine, dwell? Or recognize that jealousy is an unproductive and unattractive emotion to begin with, and look upon this as an opportunity to shed that? Some people don’t have any issue with jealousy. They think it’s a valid emotion that signals a problem, perhaps, so they are ok with the fact that they react in a jealous way to things that are reasonably expected to trigger jealousy, and see no need to change that, only change the thing that triggers the jealous response. Other people, like these women, dislike the jealous response in themselves. They don’t want to react like that to begin with, because they do not wish to be rid of the thing that triggers the response! They like that thing for the most part, they just don’t like feeling that way. So they are choosing to change their feelings. You, because you are not interested in a polygamous life, think that the only right answer is to remove the trigger, not modify the response. But they do not view the trigger as the problem, they view their response as the problem. It’s really not that uncommon for people to put themselves in positions that are unpleasant so they can overcome the feelings they have about them. If you don’ like the way you react to something, the way to deal with it is to confront the thing that makes you react that way and teach yourself not to. Consider that some people might not like the way they get angry or fearful over certain things. So they confront the thing that makes them angry or fearful in order to desensitize themselves and stop having the unwanted emotional response. You can change your feelings, or you can change your circumstance. If you like a lot of things about your circumstance, it seems pretty logical you should do what you can to change the feelings that interfere. [/QUOTE] I can buy all that. Here’s the thing, though…I’m not getting the benefits they are getting from this. Meri, maybe, cause she wanted a big family and wouldn’t otherwise have one, but that doesn’t explain why she thought it was a good idea for Kody to marry the 4th wife. This is the thing that really set me back about all this. Whatever benefits she was getting, she had from having the 2 sister wives with 12 children between them. There’s no additional benefit I can see for him to add the 4th wife, along with 3 more kids, at this time. So…what’s her point? Why do that now? It almost seems a bit masochistic at this time of their lives, and it really really makes me wonder what’s going on with her. > [@Stoid](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Here’s the big thing you don’t seem to get about this family. \*He can marry anyone else he wants and bring them into the family any time he wants. And it doesn’t matter if any of them object. It’s his perogative. \* One or more wives could have a strenuous objection for any number of reasons, and it does not matter. Their happiness doesn’t really matter in this relationship, only his does. That’s what **Diogenes** has been saying to you, that their role is to serve him in making him happy, but it doesn’t go the other way. How this is supposed to be healthy or appropriate, I don’t know. > > You are incorrect. They were very clear about it on Oprah, less so in the show, but there’s no question that no new wife can be added without the rest of the other wives approving. And the other wives did and do approve. Sure, I know they said that, but I don’t think I’m incorrect, nonetheless. You are taking everything they say at face value and not reading between the lines at all. Christine plainly said that Meri had picked this woman out, and Kody had started “courting” her _before Christine even met her._ Courting is serious business in their culture, and I strongly suspect it was well on its way to being a done deal no matter WHAT the other wives thought. If he had any respect for what his current wives really thought about it, he would have made sure they were all on board _before_ starting his courtship. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218/234 "2010-10-18T04:10:50Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > And we have _no_ idea of what pressures the man exerted on the women to essentially force the issue. > \* And zero reason to suspect any. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218/235 "2010-10-18T05:41:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That was Sarahfeena who said that, I think. But their self-serving claims are at odds to what the journalists uncovered. psst- people lie on relality TV. I don’t recall any independent investigation uncovering anything, although I recall that some reviewers misstated some things. I look forward to your link. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218/236 "2010-10-18T06:02:32Z")
What was misreported? It seems that basically these people just lied on camera (no surprise there. That’s what they’re programmed to do). ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218/237 "2010-10-18T07:18:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Have you ever lived with an abusive man? I have. I know what it is like to sit there and think to myself _am I nuts? How did I ever agree to “that”?_ Arvquan, right on!!! Or engage in the distorted thinking…" oh he’s only abusive or controlling b/c he “loves me” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218/238 "2010-10-18T08:33:08Z")
I’m a BIC, which doesn’t mean that I’m a particular brand of pens. I was “Born In the Covenant” a tongue-in-the-check expression among exmormons for those of us who came from old stock Mormon families. People who crossed the plains in the mid 1800s, often pushing all of their positions on handcarts. And yes, they were polygamous. The isolation of Utah allowed an open in the grand experiment of living the “fullness of the gospel”, obeying all the “commandments of God”, which get quote marks because they refer to the Big One, polygamy. Well, polygyny, because in Mormonism, what’s good for the gander isn’t good for the goose. And what was learned in the close to 100 years of this? I’ll give you a little hint. It wasn’t that it became a universally recognized better way of raising kids. Nope. It was that it doesn’t work that well, especially for divinely ordained institute as an absolute requirement for entering the highest degrees of heaven. The best analogy may be communism. It may sound great on paper, but even if you agree with the principles, the implementation in a real world, with real people, simply becomes an open invitation for abuse of power. The problems? Far too many to outline them all, but unhappiness of the women involved would certainly rank in the top. Hypothetically, women shouldn’t be upset with a direct commandment from the Lord, but it works out that they weren’t as thrilled about it as the men. The Net is littered with accounts of Mormon polygamous wives, and [here is one from our family](http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/Mormons/annie_tanner.htm#tanner). > [@](#): > > Throughout her marriage, Annie Clark Tanner, like many plural wives, was essentially a hard-working widow: “I had the attitude of many Mormon women in polygamy. I felt the responsibility of my family, and I developed an independence that women in monogamy never know. A woman in polygamy is compelled by her lone position to make a confidant of her children. How much more is this true when that woman is left entirely alone.” > [@](#): > > After thirty years as a plural wife, Annie Clark Tanner concluded the “companionship between husband and wife in polygamy could not be so close as in monogamy. There was more independence on both sides in polygamy …. It is needless to observe that monogamous marriages are by far the more successful. They give security and confidence, and these are the requirements for happiness.” I sure there must have been _some_ polygamous families that were happy affairs for all involved, just as I’m sure that there are _some_ homeless families that are healthy environments for the kids, but the chances aren’t encouraging. So what is the difference between the claimed and reality? First, the sister wives relationships were rarely as sweet as portrayed. You have to remember that in general, the women were not seeking this out. They joined or were born into the church first, then were roped into it. They may not have been intimidated with shotguns, but the degree of social and religious pressure cannot be understated. You cannot get into heaven to be with your family unless you do this. It seems to be viewed as a necessary evil by the women involved. Something to be endured rather than sought out for. Yes, there were exceptions, but that’s hardly a ringing endorsement. Mormonism places a great deal of emphasis on the priesthood, which all males age 12 and above are eligible but women cannot hold. Priesthood leadership in the household is strongly taught, and until the 1990 change in the mainstream LDS temple ceremony, women had to promise God that they would obey their husbands. Fundamentalists would not be making this change. More successful marriages had the families living separately, without the daily pressure of living together. This, of course, is counter to the argument that polygamy is helpful for the children. It does explain why women became essentially hard working widows, though. Divorce in polygamous Utah was higher than in the general population. The reality was also that the men did not always obtain the approval of the first wife, and approval of all the wives was not a requirement. It may be for some of the sects now, but you can be sure that that requirement is going to be ignored by many. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218/239 "2010-10-18T09:00:22Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > And zero reason to suspect any. And [other than the one time the cops got called on us because of the noise of me being slammed around the apartment loud enough to go through the very thick cement slab floors of the high rise building] you would have absolutely sworn up down and sideways that we were the happiest couple that you had ever seen. It took me 3 months to scrounge the $800 I needed to put first and last month on a tiny one bedroom flat on 13th Bay Street, which at the time was the white folks ghetto in Norfolk, you know - the one with the prostitutes on the corners, the strip clubs, the biker gangs and the rather high crime rate. I left with what I could put in my rather crappy horizon and it actually took my getting to be friendly with a couple of bikers across the street with me to go and lean on him to get most of the rest of the stuff I owned away from him. And by that I mean I took my keys to the place, the guys and they punched him out in the bedroom and helped me look around for anything else of mine that he hadn’t sold off or thrown away. Now think of this - if I had been raised to believe that the Man was the ‘natural master’, and to always obey or I would be cast out of the ‘bosom of the family and church’ to never see anybody again in life or death, have my children taken away, have to go out and find a job and live in a world I had never been raised to live in, how well do you think I would fare? I had been brainwashed to behave and it took a 3 week headache from being thrown across the living room so hard the neighbors called it in. Several hours after the cops left, and I had been thoroughly threatened with death I had to stay hidden for almost 2 weeks because of the raccoon eyes of the head injury, and have no medical treatment. _That_ is when I stopped giving him back all the change from shopping. I hate to admit that I got into doing some illegal stuff, I shoplifted duplicate items and returned them with the reciepts after he checked out the shopping and made sure the change was all there … I scrounged change off the sidewalk. I panhandled when I was absolutely certain he was not even in town and couldn’t find out about it. Hell, if the opportunity to prostitute myself had turned up, I probably would have had a go at that as well. Can you see one of these little mormon girlies doing that to get away from him, or do you see them going along with whatever he demands to keep their safe but unsatisfying life, and their children, and their contact with everything they hold familiar? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218/240 "2010-10-18T13:21:15Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > And zero reason to suspect any. What about the fact that these women have grown up indoctrinated with an FLDS background? They’re not really choosing it freely the way you made it sound. It’s more like they’ve been taught that this is how it goes, even if they hate it. I know you seem to think it’s fine for someone to willingly give up control if they do it of their own free will but I guess I just don’t. I mean, think of cults. In theory, an adult should be able to sign away their life/property to a cult leader but in reality, I don’t think it’s a good thing. And in theory, it sounds nice to say that a woman is being independent by willingly giving away her control but the reality looks closer to what **aruqan** describes than some idyllic communal living situation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-decided-polygamy-is-an-excellent-way-to-raise-a-family/557218.md?page=13)