# I've never read LOTR. Will I like the movie(s)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 2, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059 "2009-05-02T03:16:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/101 "2009-05-05T23:03:21Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Ooh just thought of another question. Frodo’s sword seemed to glow at certain times. Is it sort of a general evil detector, or was it attuned to some specific type of foe? Or was I wrong about it glowing? Sometimes the effect seemed a bit ambiguous… i.e. I wasn’t sure if it was supposed to be _always_ glowing or if it was just shining in the moonlight or what have you. That one is explicitly stated in the movie: it glows when orcs are near. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/102 "2009-05-05T23:06:43Z")
Thanks, **Just Some Guy**. Dammit. I’m gonna have to watch the film again with full volume up. I really missed dialogue, it seems. I’m really not this dense, honest! There was just a lot to take in, and my hearing isn’t that great at night. (I have tinnitus and it gets worse when I’m tired, and this affects my ability to discern individual voices when in a crowd or when there’s a lot of background noise.) I’ll just shut up now because I don’t want everyone to think I wasn’t paying attention and I’m coming across like a total dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/103 "2009-05-05T23:15:20Z")
> [@choie](#): > > (I don’t recall hearing Elrond’s name, for that matter.) But those are probably due to my hearing issues. Next time you watch a DVD, turn on the subtitles. Seriously. It will greatly add to your understanding to see all those unfamiliar names & words, in print. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/104 "2009-05-05T23:19:04Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Next time you watch a DVD, turn on the subtitles. Seriously. It will greatly add to your understanding to see all those unfamiliar names & words, in print. OMG, that is a freakin’ brilliant idea! I can’t believe I never thought of it before! And this is the perfect movie for such subtitles, too. Bless you, **jsc1953**. Kinda makes me feel old (well, old_er_) but still, needs must when the devil drives. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/105 "2009-05-05T23:22:42Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Ah thanks all for the scoop on hobbity and dwarfy traits! I didn’t realize hobbits were considered ‘human’. Is that true of dwarves as well? No, although it’s kind of a distinction without a difference. Dwarves were separately created (see Silmarillion for details) from men/hobbits. But the difference between dwarves & men is insignificant compared to the differences between men & elves. On the other hand, there are no records of men & dwarves intermarrying. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/106 "2009-05-05T23:26:35Z")
Choie, dear - don’t worry about being “dumb”. Enjoy! And remember, all those games and fantasy stories and wizarding stories, they stole from Tolkien. You know I often watch British films with the subtitles on. It’s helpful with thick accents or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/107 "2009-05-05T23:37:41Z")
Quoth **Qadgop the Mercotan** : > [@](#): > > Got a cite for that? My recollection is that clearly the choice was extended to the children of Elrond by the Valar, when they met in counsel to figure what to do with the “problem of Peredhil”. We’ve discussed this before, and I think we ended up agreeing to disagree. Unless you have a cite for the choice being explicitly extended to the children of Elrond? Quoth **mlees** : > [@](#): > > I don’t recall any details Tolkien may have given on Elf love. Do they pair/mate for life? When Tolkien says “elf”, think “Catholic”, and you’ll get the right general idea. And on the distinction between different kinds of magic, there’s really more of a three-way distinction in Tolkien’s works. First, there’s inherent power, which various beings have to various degrees. Gandalf’s “magic” falls into this category, as do Elrond and Galadriel and all that they do. Inherent power is part of who and what you are, and while one may be able to develop it, it certainly can’t be gained from scratch. Second, there’s sorcery, which is a black art. Since the story focuses on the heroes, we don’t hear much about this, other than that you don’t want to be on the wrong end of it. Third, there’s high art, which looks magical to many folks, but which is really just a very advanced technology, the details of which are now lost to most folks. Along these lines, elves and dwarves have been known to make artificial gemstones, humans of old built nigh-impenetrable fortresses, and so on. In general, the word “magic” is used only by those who don’t have it: Those who do have inherent power or knowledge of high arts generally consider it to be perfectly normal and natural. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/108 "2009-05-05T23:52:19Z")
Just a little more detail about Aragorn and his many aliases. Some of this comes out in the movies, but in a very oblique way that might not make sense if you’re not looking for it. Aragorn’s people no longer have any real kingdom of their own, and are commonly known as the “Rangers” and more properly as the “Dunedain.” The Rangers were descended from a group of people who had unique wisdom/learning, and exceptionally long life as they were decended from Elros, the human brother of Elrond. The line is now considered diluted, but they say Aragorn is much more like his forbears than others of recent memory. Rangers hang around The Shire quite a lot (where the hobbits tend to fear them, not for any particular reason, just that they’re creepy and quasi-landless and hobbits are suspicious of strangers. The is one of several reasons why the Hobbits fear Strider when they first meet him). Aragorn’s father (Arathorn) was the leader of his people, and was assassinated when Aragorn was young. He was thus sent away from his people and raised in Rivendell under the direct protection of his elvish (very distant) family. It is considerably dangerous for him to go around under his own name because pretty much everyone wants him dead, from Sauron right down the neighborhood warlord. Aragorn was not even told his real name until around age 21 (he was known as “Estel” which means “hope” in elvish and is one of the FEW of Aragorns nicknames that did not make it into the movie, except as what might be a pun in an Elvish bit of dialogue). Long story shorrt, Aragorn and keeps his shit on the down-low for good reason. Now, the distant forbears of Aragorn were Kings in the land where Boromir is from (called Gondor). Many many years ago the last true king died, and someone not of the same family line became the leader, calling himself “Steward” and never taking the King’s throne. The Stewards ruled Gondor for many, many generations; Boromir’s father is the current Steward of Gondor and Boromir is groomed to become Steward in time. So Boromir is sort of a prince of his country. So Aragorn comes along, and between his family lineage and various items Aragorn carries, Boromir realizes that he could maybe possibly try to claim the King’s Throne of Gondor, a seat his own father has never ever sat in, in all his years of service trying to keep Sauron at bay. Boromir looks at him, this homeless nobody who as far as he can tell has never done a thing to help out Gondor and thinks “who the F@!^$ do you think you are?” Aragorn seems like an interloper – one who is treated with insulting deference at the council. Boromir greatly doubts his motives. So you see, when Boromir, in his dying breath, calls Aragorn his “King” this is actually a VERY HUGE DEAL. ---
**Author:** ![Jman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jman/32/4416_2.png) [@Jman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jman)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/109 "2009-05-06T00:23:39Z")
I saw the movies before reading the book. I’m very glad I saw the movies first. I was able to fall in love with the movies…then read the book, and fall in love with the book. They are two very distinct things for me, and as a result, I still love both forms of the story. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/110 "2009-05-06T01:43:13Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > I know, but it’s just a reminder to people to think twice about what they post. Always a good idea. That’s why I made sure I wasn’t giving away anything that hadn’t already been revealed.[spoiler] > [@](#): > > And choie, there is a difference between the Gandalf of Fellowship and the “Gandalf” of The Two Towers, so you still have a surprise in store. [/spoiler]Well, it would have been more of a surprise… > [@choie](#): > > Sorry for getting mixed up re: D&D and LOTR mythoses. (Is that the correct plural?) Not only am I new to LOTR, but I’m new to D&D too – I only know it through the OOTS comic, and my roleplaying experience consists of a single night ten years ago sitting in as a newbie on a Call of Cthulhu game that was kind of a dud. Anyway, as far as I can tell from OOTS – though this itself isn’t 100% in adherence to D&D rules, I’ve read – D&D seems to take a lot from LOTR. The various creatures, for example. So I’m not sure exactly where it parts company with the Tolkein saga that clearly inspired it. I played AD&D about 20 years ago and Halflings were very much modeled after Tolkien’s Hobbits. My understanding is they’ve diverged quite a bit in recent editions of the games. > [@Chronos](#): > > Unless you have a cite for the choice being explicitly extended to the children of Elrond? “To him therefore was granted the same grace as to those of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth: that when weary at last of the mortal lands they could take ship from the Grey Havens and pass into the Uttermost West; and this grace continued after the change of the world. But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth (Appendix A, Lord of the Rings).” Also in several letters written by Tolkien. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/111 "2009-05-06T02:09:11Z")
OK, if you’re going to be bringing in obscure sources like the Appendices… :smack: I’m not sure whether I’m more puzzled by why I never noticed that, or by why Elros’ children weren’t given the choice, while Elrond’s were. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/112 "2009-05-06T02:16:52Z")
I always wanted to know more about Elrond’s sons myself. sorry, off topic ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/113 "2009-05-06T02:32:15Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Ah thanks all for the scoop on hobbity and dwarfy traits! I didn’t realize hobbits were considered ‘human’. Is that true of dwarves as well? I don’t know that hobbits are considred to be human; they’re clearly their own race (in the second book / movie, this leads to some consternation among the members of another race that you haven’t met yet). However, IIRC, dwarves were created separately from the other races, and specifically by a particular one of the gods. The entire creation myth of Middle-Earth makes up the first part of another Tolkien book, “The Silmarillion”, which reads even _more_ like a history text than the LotR trilogy does. 🙂 > [@choie](#): > > Sorry for getting mixed up re: D&D and LOTR mythoses. (Is that the correct plural?) I’ve seen the word “mythoi”; no idea if that’s correct. > [@choie](#): > > Anyway, as far as I can tell from OOTS – though this itself isn’t 100% in adherence to D&D rules, I’ve read – D&D seems to take a lot from LOTR. The various creatures, for example. So I’m not sure exactly where it parts company with the Tolkein saga that clearly inspired it. Middle-Earh is clearly one of the inspirations for D&D (particularly at first glance), but there are a lot of others, too, both from historical fiction and modern fantasy works. In particular, the D&D concept of magic is **very** different from how magic works in Tolkien. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/114 "2009-05-06T03:06:43Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Just a little more detail about Aragorn… > > Aragorn’s father (Arathorn) was the leader of his people, and was assassinated when Aragorn was young… > > Now, the distant forbears of Aragorn were Kings in the land where Boromir is from (called Gondor). Many many years ago the last true king died, and someone not of the same family line became the leader, calling himself “Steward” and never taking the King’s throne… A pretty good summary, all in all, but two clarifications, if I may. Arathorn was killed by orcs while his son Aragorn was only a boy. I wouldn’t say “assassinated,” as that sounds like a political murder, and there’s nothing to suggest his death was anything other than the result of fighting the bad guys out in the wilderness and coming up short. For almost as long as there were kings in Gondor, there were stewards, IIRC. A steward was kind of like a deputy king, the top aide to the monarch, who functioned as regent in the king’s absence. When King Earnur rode off to fight the Witch-king and never returned - likely but not definitely dead - his steward Mardil ruled in the king’s absence, as did all of his descendants until “the return of the King” in the person of Aragorn, when the last Ruling Steward’s son Faramir acknowledged him as King Elessar and took up the office of steward, subordinate to the new monarch (and was also named Prince of Ithilien, but that’s another matter). ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/115 "2009-05-06T03:22:01Z")
UNdying Lands. \ Sorry about that. As for Sting, it was originally an Elven blade, stolen by some orcs long ago, retaken by Bilbo in _The Hobbit_. Yes, it was designed to glow like that in the presence of orcs, tho PJ wasn’t always 100% consistent with that. The sword Gandalf wields, Glamdring, was made by the same Elven smithy, but never glowed in the movies. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/116 "2009-05-06T03:44:33Z")
Hobbits: Stout-hearted little folk who like nothing more than to eat and drink and smoke, and most definitely _not have any adventures!_ Everyone thought Bilbo was a little unbalanced in _The Hobbit_ when he took off on his Adventure, and they had their suspicions until the day he left. It’s been a while since I’ve seen the films, and longer since I’ve read the book; but one thing made clear in _The Hobbit_ if not in LOTR is that _normal_ hobbits like to stick close to home. And they’re naturally stealthy and are excellent at throwing rocks and using slings. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/117 "2009-05-06T12:32:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, if you’re going to be bringing in obscure sources like the Appendices… :smack: > > I’m not sure whether I’m more puzzled by why I never noticed that, or by why Elros’ children weren’t given the choice, while Elrond’s were. Appendices? Obscure? :eek: Now citing HOMES, or personal conversations with JRRT, _that’s_ obscure! 😃 My WAG about your other point: A mortal’s fate is not governed by Ainulindalë. It’d probably be more paperwork to take a mortal and jam them into the framework of being governed by the Music of the Ainur, by converting them to elvish immortality, than it would take for releasing an elf from the bonds of said Music, when making them mortal. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/118 "2009-05-06T14:10:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **Qadgop the Mercotan** : > > Quoth **mlees** :When Tolkien says “elf”, think “Catholic”, and you’ll get the right general idea. There may be a subtle difference. In Catholicism, you may remarry if your spouse died. I was wondering if Elves only fall in love once, for some reason, and if some clumsy groom, just after saying “I do”, immediately tripped and fell of the tree limb, and broke his scrawny neck, that the bride was doomed to live her life childless, and heartbroken. If so, Elrond knew that within a century or so, which is practically “tomorrow” to a being that can live many thousands of years, his daughter was doomed to have her joy of life snuffed out, and wander the land until she became a banshee. (heh.) ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/119 "2009-05-06T14:25:04Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > There may be a subtle difference. In Catholicism, you may remarry if your spouse died. > > I was wondering if Elves only fall in love once, for some reason, and if some clumsy groom, just after saying “I do”, immediately tripped and fell of the tree limb, and broke his scrawny neck, that the bride was doomed to live her life childless, and heartbroken. If so, Elrond knew that within a century or so, which is practically “tomorrow” to a being that can live many thousands of years, his daughter was doomed to have her joy of life snuffed out, and wander the land until she became a banshee. (heh.) But if you’re an elf, only their body dies and their soul will be rehoused in a new one and there is only a momentary parting between spouses. The elves reside within the world/universe until it is unmade. Elrond is effectively reduced to never seeing his child again within the lifetime of Arda and perhaps not even after that once she makes the choice to be mortal. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/120 "2009-05-06T17:40:03Z")
Thanks again for the info about “Sting.” And thanks to **well he’s back** for being so kind as to say I’m not a dumbass. 🙂 The glowing didn’t seem quite consistent to me, which is why I couldn’t suss out the orc connection myself. But that makes me wonder: are orcs more of a threat than anything else in Arda? I mean, why is its warning specific to orcs, rather than, say, goblins? (Or is magic necessarily that specific?) Here’s another question that’s not really plot-related. I was surprised and a bit disappointed that Gollum wasn’t much of a character in this film. I thought the whole “my precioussss” meme became popular, such as it was, as a result of the first film. I guess I was wrong and it’s the next one where Gollum/Smeagol plays a bigger role? A yes/no will suffice if saying more will be too spoilery. Another question, more of a survey I suppose: would you say this is the best of the three films, or do the others stack up equally? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059.md?page=7)