# I've never read LOTR. Will I like the movie(s)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 2, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059 "2009-05-02T03:16:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/141 "2009-05-06T20:36:04Z")
Likewise, the bit about the Sackville-Bagginses wasn’t a real spoiler, either, since you’ve already encountered Lobelia towards the beginning of the movie (she’s the shrill-sounding lady who comes calling on Bilbo, to which he recoils and says “I’m not at home”). ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/142 "2009-05-06T20:38:09Z")
Regarding Gimli, Balin and Moria. Spoilered for paranoia. 😛 [spoiler]The real reason is that, honestly, the film didn’t think it out very well. In the BOOK, Gimli is well aware that everyone in Moria is probably dead. Balin went in, some years ago and “for a while, we had news, and it seemed good” and then silence. And that was -years- ago. The possibilities are, essentially A) Things have gone badly in Moria since then or B) Balin just ran out of stamps and has been too busy rolling around in his Mithril Vault to visit the post office for more. Gandalf considers it -possible- that dwarves are still in Moria, but doesn’t really expect it. Gimli doesn’t precisely weigh in, but he never says anything as absurd as “We could go through Moria. I’m sure my cousin Balin would throw us one hell of a party” which he essentially does in the film. If my memory serves, he at one point more or less says “Yeah, I’m willing to go into Moria. Maybe we’ll find out what happened to Balin.” Now, to be fair, in the movie, the timeline seems much more compressed. If Balin had only been writing home once a year or so, it’s entirely possible that if he and his buddies have only been dead a couple of years, that maybe folks haven’t quite put two and two together yet. Still, you’d think the place had been thriving, rather than the site of a relatively modest expedition making an attempt to reclaim it.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/143 "2009-05-06T20:40:33Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Balin was seeking Mithril, which is a significant enterprise, and had only returned to re-open the mine some years after the events of _The Hobbit_[ – Balin entered the mine in 2989, and was killed in 2994, in other words, he had only been there 5 years and there is no evidence (er, that I remember) that the mine ever produced goods in that time. Gimli may have had his misgivings, but I wouldn’t say he was necesarily in denial or that the dwarves of Moria were obviously dead. > > It would be like you had a friend that went to live high in the Himalayas and you didn’t hear from him for a year. You might be a little worried but you wouldn’t assume that he was dead, right? The events in the trilogy occur in 3019, 25 years after the destruction of the colony. Khazad-dum was destroyed in 1980, and left abandoned by the dwarves for a thousand years before they tried to reinhabit it. I don’t recall if the other dwarf nations knew exactly what had befallen Khazad-dum, but it still should have an evil reputation compared with some other random set of mountains or caves. I don’t think the point made by **Shot from Guns** is without merit. I was merely trying to speculate on Gimli’s apparent actions and mood. Again, I don’t recall how experienced Gimli is in life. He may have been a real noobcake, all bright eyed with wonder at the world. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/144 "2009-05-06T20:41:39Z")
**choie** , the giant red warning is an _awesome idea_. Perfect compromise, IMO. **Hello Again** : I just find it hard to believe that there would be no established communication with the expedition, I guess. I mean, where did they get their food? It’s not like there’s a lot that grows underground. Wouldn’t whoever was trucking in supplies notice that the front entrance was full of dead dwarves full of goblin arrows? ETA: **Airk** , that makes more sense. It’s really the movie “hay guyz laets go 4 partee 4rilz yo” that threw me the most. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/145 "2009-05-06T22:10:06Z")
**choie** , you seem like a reasonable and level-headed sort of person. Since I thought there were only one or two vaguely spoilerish things in my previous wall of text, I thought the spoiler warning was sufficient, but since it obviously didn’t work I won’t try that again. I apologize if anything I wrote diminishes your enjoyment of the films in anyway. Let me assure that you could have read everything in this thread, boxed, open, or marked as spoilers, and they would still be worth be seeing and full of surprises. > [@Equipoise](#): > > TWDuke, are you freaking kidding me? You snark at me because I’m worried about spoilers and then say something totally mild and barely semi-spoilery, No, Equipoise, I “snarked” at you for the Internet equivalent of shouting at me after I “revealed” something that had already been mentioned openly in this thread (and incidentally would in all probability be known to anyone about to watch the second movie), and then being somewhat lax yourself. > [@](#): > > then you go ahead and lay out the entire spoiler-ridden plot of the next two movies and _don’t even put it in a spoiler box_! For crying out loud, reading that **WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING** Saruman and Sauron are defeatedWARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING is going to spoil the movie for anyone? That’s a rhetorical question. The fact that the elves are leavingis commented on in the extended version of **Fellowship** (probably the theatrical version as well, although I don’t recall the specific scene). Theents dying out as a raceis hardly a major plot point. It’s hardly a plot point at all. In fact, it isn’t a plot point. Other than the utterly unpredictable, stunning twist that Saruman and Sauronare defeated, the only thing about the actual plot of the movies that I can see that I revealed was that Gandalf doesn’t get killed again. Or he does get killed and is resurrected again. Or I’m using “going home” in a metaphorical sense.I’m not sure what exactly you think a plot is, but what I wrote is world’s away from “the entire spoiler-ridden plot of the next two movies.” > [@](#): > > People are bound and determined to ruin them for you. Gosh, **Equipoise** , you must be right. It can’t possibly be that I thought I had some interesting facts and opinions to share and a different sense of what did or did not need to be in spoiler boxes. I must be “bound and determined” to ruin the movies for someone of whose existence I was until recently completely unaware. Now that you have valiantly exposed the depths of my evil, in suitably shrill and melodramatic terms, I will skulk away from Cafe Society for the time being and leave you to police it with all the zeal you see fit. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/146 "2009-05-06T22:31:18Z")
Jeez, come in for some JRRT discussion, and all I hear is orc-talk… Don’t make me raise this thread! 😃 And **Airk**? I thought your explanation sounded [familiar](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10238948&postcount=79). 😉 > [@QtM](#): > > 48 years after the events of the Hobbit, Balin leads a group of dwarves back to Moria, which has long been riddled with orcs, along with “Durin’s Bane” aka Balrog. Balin apparently hoped that said Bane had gotten bored and wandered off between the Dwarf and Orc wars and then. > > He has initial success entering the place, sends letters back saying he’s found mithril, then 5 years after entering Moria, the letters stop. > > 25 years after the last letter, the Fellowship shows up, hoping that maybe Balin had just run out of stamps. Gandalf, having traipsed thru Moria from East to West some years earlier, is for the idea. Aragorn isn’t so hot on it. > > The rest is history… ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/147 "2009-05-06T22:43:41Z")
No problemo, **TWDuke**. And thanks for saying I’m reasonable. You did try to hide the info from me! Really the only reason it didn’t work is because of the way I read footnotes – I love when I see footnotes in books, they’re like the pop-ups in _Pop Up Videos_ – so when I saw the superscript number / asterisks, my eyes automatically zipped down to read the extra material. But again, as far as I can tell, they don’t seem like anything I didn’t already guess (e.g. the Sauron thing) or don’t even understand since I don’t have the context yet (the Sackville reference). So please, you and **Equipoise** , don’t fight! It’s not worth the hijack. I really do appreciate all the input. And best of all, this thread will have extra meaning for me once I _do_ see the films and read the books, since I’ll be able to re-read it and understand all the stuff you guys were talking about. (I’m just happy not to be a threadkiller for once. I figured if one of my threads would finally be successful, it’d be the one about LOTR! :D) More on topic question: If I’m reading your discussion about the mines correctly, Mithril is a sort of metal? I thought it just described the type of chainmail armor, perhaps relating to some spell surrounding it. But it refers to the material itself? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/148 "2009-05-06T23:27:55Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > Actually, those are trolls that turn to stone. Orcs just really, really dislike the sun. This isn’t much of a factor in LOTR because (a) Saruman’s been tinkering and (b) Tolkien realized, as would Joss Whedon, that confining your bad guys’ activities to nighttime severely limits their effectiveness. Also, Sauron blanketed the land in gloom when the big fights near Minas Tirith started, which I presume was done to strengthen his orc mobs, as well as dismay the other side. The movies skipped over all this, and the battles were in sunlight. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/149 "2009-05-07T00:18:56Z")
> [@choie](#): > > More on topic question: If I’m reading your discussion about the mines correctly, Mithril is a sort of metal? I thought it just described the type of chainmail armor, perhaps relating to some spell surrounding it. But it refers to the material itself? Yes. Very rare, very sought after (assuming you’ve ever heard about it) due to its malleability, lightness, beauty and strength. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/150 "2009-05-07T03:04:31Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Yes. Very rare, very sought after (assuming you’ve ever heard about it) due to its malleability, lightness, beauty and strength. Apparently the “Mithril coat” is not -actually- Mithril, but some sort of Mithril alloy - now that I’m home I can cite all this nonsense. Fellowship, pg 473: [QUOTE=J.R.R. Tolkien/Gandalf] '_Mithril!_ All folk desired it. It could be beaten like copper, and polished like glass; and the Dwarves could make of it a metal, light and yet harder than tempered steel. [/quote] I’m too lazy to type the entire passage, but suffice to say it was rare, strong, beautiful, and coveted by just about everyone, and the reason that Moria was such a wealthy place in its heyday - for it was the only place Mithril was found. Also, with regard to the expedition to Moria, apologies to **Qadgop the Mercotan** - your comment was too brilliant to pass up. I should have credited you right off. Anyway, further commentary, since I have the book in front of me: [spoiler]Gloin (Gimli’s Dad) says, at the council of Elrond, with Gimli sitting right there (in fact, this is our first time meeting Gimli, though he doesn’t really talk at the Council - Gloin does all of that) so unless he’s dumb as a post and somehow missedd this not only at the council but back at Lonely Mountain where it all occured, he knows that according to Fellowship, page 316: [QUOTE=J.R.R. Tolkien/Gloin] ‘At last, however, Balin listened to the whispers and resolved to go [to Moria]; and though Dain did not give leave willingly, he took with him Ori and Oin and many of our folk, and they went away south.’ ‘That was night unto thirty years ago. For a while we had news and it seemed good: messages reported that Moria had been entered and great work begun there. Then there was silence and no word has come from Moria since.’ [/quote] So Gimli bloody well -ought- not to have been expecting expecting a party. And, in fact, in the book, he doesn’t. On page 387 Gandalf says of going into Moria "If there are Orcs there, it may prove ill for us, that is true… but there is a hope that Moria is still free.’ ‘There is even a chance that Dwarves are there, and that in some deep hall of his fathers, Balin son of Fundin may be found.’ And Gimli responds simply with: “I will tread the path with you, Gandalf! I will go and look on the halls of Durin, whatever may wait there…” So yeah. In the book? It makes sense. In the film? Well, if the dwarf corpses were less dessicated, it might be easier to buy. :P[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/151 "2009-05-07T03:17:10Z")
Squeegee! You inadvertently had a spoiler in the body of your post, seriously! Remember, Choie is a JRRT virgin! Do you know how rare that is? They are rarely rarely spotted in this age. I’ve gotten quite protective of him/her. (But I don’t want another shouting match.) ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/152 "2009-05-07T03:56:05Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > Squeegee! You inadvertently had a spoiler in the body of your post, seriously! Remember, Choie is a JRRT virgin! Do you know how rare that is? They are rarely rarely spotted in this age. I’ve gotten quite protective of him/her. (But I don’t want another shouting match.) Point taken but… I dunno, it’s a really really small spoiler. That Sauron attacks some city somewhere later in the series is not really weapon-grade spoilage. And the gloom isn’t even in the movies. I mean, jeez, look at the title of the third book & movie. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/153 "2009-05-07T04:07:42Z")
Ok. So we’re still tight, co-LOTR fans then everybody? Everybody everything? Good. Can’t wait for Choie to watch the next movie. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/154 "2009-05-07T04:08:26Z")
Thanks to **Grey** and **Airk** for the Mithral update. OMG, I just realized that for the first time, thanks to both LOTR and OOTS, I understand the song from _NewsRadio_, sung by Matthew (Andy Dick) when a colleague named Ted died: > [@Matthew](#): > > "Ted. He’s dead. And the hobbits and the gnomes, they’re dancing to and fro > They have to keep the plus-two sword from the chaotic evil thief lord > Now we’re rockin’, now we’re really rockin’ > Now we’re really really really really really rockin’ > > [PLAYS AIR GUITAR] > But one day, Ted met an elf named Matthew > But Balrog the dragon was a clever beast > Matthew’s vorpal sword of sharpness was no match…[GETS INTERRUPTED] > But Matthew’s mithril chain mail really rocked the house…" > [PLAYS AIR GUITAR] I never understood what a “plustwo” sword was, but now I get that it’s “+2” , i.e., a reference to D&D’s weapon rating/point system. Ditto the “chaotic evil thief” line, relating to alignments. And mithril and Balrog are LOTR references of course. Woohoo, I’ve cracked the code. Now all that’s left is “vorpal sword.” Anyone? > [@](#): > > Squeegee! You inadvertently had a spoiler in the body of your post, seriously! Remember, Choie is a JRRT virgin! Do you know how rare that is? They are rarely rarely spotted in this age. I’ve gotten quite protective of him/her. (But I don’t want another shouting match.) Goodness! With all these good folk fighting over whether to spoil me or not, I feel like the proverbial maiden in the tower with a host of Lochinvars as protection. I do appreciate it, **well he’s back**. Seriously, that’s cool, **squeegee**. I’m trying to “blip” over stuff that seems unfamiliar enough not to relate to _Fellowship_. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/155 "2009-05-07T04:21:40Z")
The “vorpal sword” is from Jabberwocky, the poem in Alice in Wonderland, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/156 "2009-05-07T04:40:13Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > The “vorpal sword” is from Jabberwocky, the poem in Alice in Wonderland, I believe. Indeed. > [@Lewis Carroll](#): > > One, two! One, two! And through and through > The vorpal blade went snicker-snack! > He left it dead, and with its head > He went galumphing back. The vorpal sword has been a fixture in D&D since the earliest editions; it has the special property (inspired by the poem, obviously) of being able to decapitate one’s opponent. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/157 "2009-05-07T04:45:55Z")
> [@choie](#): > > And mithril and Balrog are LOTR references of course. Though, both also wound up in D&D, though the names were changed (in the same way that hobbits became halflings in D&D due to legal action from the Tolkien estate). Mithril in D&D was re-spelled as “mithral”, but it’s the same basic idea: a rare, lightweight, bright silvery metal that makes for excellent armor. Balrogs were re-dubbed “balor” demons in D&D; they’ve appeared in every edition of the game, and are consistently about the toughest non-unique demons in the game. The description of a balor (right down to a sword in one hand and a flaming whip in the other) pretty much exactly fits a balrog. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/158 "2009-05-07T04:51:11Z")
Ah, got it, thanks guys. My guess is, knowing Matthew, the vorpal sword is a D&D ref rather than _Jabberwocky_. Does “halfling” predate Tolkein as a term? Wikipedia doesn’t seem to indicate that it does. So I’m surprised the Tolkein estate allows it either. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/159 "2009-05-07T04:53:16Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Mithril in D&D was re-spelled as “mithral”, but it’s the same basic idea: a rare, lightweight, bright silvery metal that makes for excellent armor. Mithril is spelled _mithril_ in (TSR’s D&D-based) Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance novels, for the record. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059/160 "2009-05-07T05:00:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Not quite. Or rather, quite and then some. In _The Hobbit_, Gandalf’s sword Glamdring and Thorin’s sword Orcrist were presented as a pair, but they weren’t really, except in the eyes of the orcs. Orcrist (the name means “goblin-cleaver”) was, like Bilbo’s, a weapon specifically forged to be of value against orcs, but Glamdring (“foe-hammer”) was forged against all enemies, and would glow when _any_ enemy was near. This makes Glamdring considerably more valuable, and indeed it had a much more prestigious history of prior ownership back in Gondolin (one of the old great Elf-kingdoms in the First Age). I don’t think it’s even said anywhere who the original owner of Orcrist was. That’s what I get for answering out of my memory, when there’s some serious JRRT experts in the room. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-never-read-lotr-will-i-like-the-movie-s/495059.md?page=9)