# I've read the bible...... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 29, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430 "2011-03-29T21:14:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430/81 "2011-03-30T22:27:12Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Yes, with all due respect. > > I’ve only taken particular notice you/ your posts in the last year or two, and while I would disagree with you more often than not, I find you very intelligent and more importantly (to me) quite reasonable and open minded. I enjoy your posts. > > So…I hope you don’t think I’m throwing rocks. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430/82 "2011-03-30T22:57:55Z")
I have read it cover to cover at least a half dozen times, back when I was a believer. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430/83 "2011-03-30T23:17:53Z")
It’s a dry read. I’ve only read little bits scattered throughout. I’ve never been a religious person, so it gets very exhausting reading the mythical nonsense, mixed in amongst the dodgy third-person “factual” accounts of presumably real events, and the reasonably acceptable allegories. I did read some of the Jesus parts carefully, to see what all the fuss was about. It’s maddeningly incomplete and “he said/she said.” ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430/84 "2011-03-30T23:37:36Z")
I’ve read the New testament Cover to Cover in the KJV and in Richmond Lattimore’s translation. I’ve also read part of it in the Jerusalem Bible. I’ve read a lot of the Old Testament, in the KJV and the Jerusalem Bible. I skipped a lot of the Geneology and the Jewish laws. I find the Christ story very moving, with it’s powerful theme of redemption and forgiveness. I didn’t find it a dry read at all, the KJV in particular I found very beautiful. I think anyone who writes should be familiar with the KJV, as, along with Shakespeare, it is one of the foundational texts of Modern English. That’s just my opinion. [This](http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Designed-Literature-Testaments-Version/dp/0671879596/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1301527957&sr=1-1) is a good version for those who want to give the KJV a shot. highly edited and abridged, and designed for maximum readability. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Crazyquilt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b77776/32.png) [@Jack\_Crazyquilt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Crazyquilt)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430/85 "2011-03-30T23:48:28Z")
I’ve read it cover-to-cover three times. KJV all three times, and yes, I agree that those endless begats were the worst part of the whole read. They should have put stuff like that in the Appendix. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430/86 "2011-03-31T08:55:54Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Such was not my intention, but clearly it was the effect. It was inappropriate and I apologize. Thank you. FWIW it isn’t something that I have seen you express much before. It is just very wearing when (some) secular atheists treat it as self-evident that the God-character described in most of the books of the Tanakh is (a) textually coherent (HAH!) and (b) inherently abhorrent, and therefore anyone involved in any kind of practice based on that textual tradition must be stupid or evil. I guess “all Jews are stupid and evil” is a change of pace from “all Jews are conniving and _a bit too clever_ and evil”, but it’s still tiring! Anyway, thank you for apologising and clarifying. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > One of mine pointed out that God never actually answers Job’s questions, which are, in fact, quite insolent. He, God, basically responds to the inquiries about justice and morality by saying “You realize I can kill you with my brain, right? And when I say _you_, I mean \*your entire freaking species./I] And your pets.” Job then falls silent, and God ultimately restores all that was taken from him. > > No, excuse me, He _replaces_ what was taken from him. The dead kids remain dead. > > Anywho, Brother Ted said this indicated God’s essentially conceding Job’s point; he called it a turning point in God’s moral evolution. Yes, Job is one of my favorite books for a jolly weird and interesting take on the God character. I haven’t done anywhere near as much reading on it as I’d like, but I think it’s important to remember that the whole deal started with Satan effectively playing chicken with God and God saying “Well, fine then! Fuck this guy over and kill his family, knock yourself out!” just to prove a point to a lawyer (a lawyer who works for him, no less). I read God as very defensive and on a back foot through that whole answer-that-isn’t-an-answer monologue (which is also quite funny: “What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings? Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years!” aka “WELL GET YOU, MISTER THINKS-HE-KNOWS-SO-MUCH”). Insisting something loudly and repeatedly is a pretty good sign of a lack of confidence. I’m quite keen on the development of the character of God through the different texts (compare the two God characters in Job and Jonah, for example), and especially within the same text (I am genuinely confused by any theology that doesn’t take the flood as an epic fuck-up). But maybe that’s fodder for another thread. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430/87 "2011-03-31T09:35:58Z")
Ironically (but certainly not uniquely), I became interested in the Bible _after_ I became an atheist. Read it two times cover to cover, but some books like the Book of Numbers, some of the prophets or Maccabees (I’m an ex-Catholic) are such a drag that I really don’t remember much from them. After that, I became picky, and reread only the parts I really found interesting, especially Genesis, Exodus, Joshua, Judges, Samuel and the whole NT, all of which I’ve read at least three times. Unfortunately, as much as I’m interested in the subject, I’m afraid I’ll never become really knowledgeable, since the whole book is such a vast amount of information you’ll never be able to really get without much background literature, and I’m just too lazy to seriously study the topic. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430/88 "2011-03-31T11:34:27Z")
I definitely agree that it becomes a more more interesting literary text once you have freed yourself up to approach it as, well, a literary text. Identify The Sociopolitical Context And Agenda is an especially good game to play with the military history parts. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430/89 "2011-03-31T11:56:52Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > One of mine pointed out that God never actually answers Job’s questions, which are, in fact, quite insolent. He, God, basically responds to the inquiries about justice and morality by saying “You realize I can kill you with my brain, right? And when I say _you_, I mean \*your entire freaking species./I] And your pets.” Job then falls silent, and God ultimately restores all that was taken from him. > > No, excuse me, He _replaces_ what was taken from him. The dead kids remain dead. Unless you believe in reincarnation. ---
**Author:** ![Kim\_o\_the\_Concrete\_Jungle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ee7513/32.png) [@Kim\_o\_the\_Concrete\_Jungle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kim_o_the_Concrete_Jungle)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430/90 "2011-03-31T13:12:08Z")
Actually, I entirely agree with Skald’s original opinion as stated. Reading the book of Joshua (all the way through, and without resorting to all the hand-waving nonsense people use to gloss over it) made me feel physically ill. Doubly so, because it represents the same basic attitude that so-called Christians took with the to the Crusades, or the counter-reformation, or any number of other atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430/91 "2011-03-31T13:16:19Z")
> [@Kim\_o\_the\_Concrete\_Jungle](#): > > Actually, I entirely agree with Skald’s original opinion as stated. > > Reading the book of Joshua (all the way through, and without resorting to all the hand-waving nonsense people use to gloss over it) made me feel physically ill. Doubly so, because it represents the same basic attitude that so-called Christians took with the to the Crusades, or the counter-reformation, or any number of other atrocities. So what would be your take on the book of Job? ---
**Author:** ![Kim\_o\_the\_Concrete\_Jungle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ee7513/32.png) [@Kim\_o\_the\_Concrete\_Jungle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kim_o_the_Concrete_Jungle)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430/92 "2011-03-31T13:52:42Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > So what would be your take on the book of Job? That it fails to resolve the theological conundrum it sets for itself. The entire narrative leads up to Job’s long and detailed (and in my view, entirely reasonable) complaint. This is, basically, that God allows the evil go unpunished while the good must suffer every indignity. It seems to me that, at this point, the writer means to answer that complaint with some sort of reasonable, knock-down argument, but can’t think of one. So he puts a bunch of unconvincing excuses into God’s mouth instead. He tries to make up for it at the end by restoring all of Job’s wealth and giving him a new family, but Job’s complaint essentially goes unanswered. The overall effect is to point out the huge hole in Judeo-Christian moral philosophy, without suggesting any kind of real solution other than, “because I’m God, and I can do whatever I like, so there.” ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430/93 "2011-03-31T14:15:35Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > BTW, mandatory _Simpsons_ quote: Why read the Bible when you can listen to it on tape? “Hi, I’m Larry King…in the beginning…” ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430/94 "2011-03-31T14:39:18Z")
The book of Ezekiel gives the best Bible quotes to use if you ever find yourself in a Bible quote war with a fundy. Ezekiel 23:19-20 (New International Version) 19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430/95 "2011-03-31T15:39:56Z")
> [@Kim\_o\_the\_Concrete\_Jungle](#): > > That it fails to resolve the theological conundrum it sets for itself. The entire narrative leads up to Job’s long and detailed (and in my view, entirely reasonable) complaint. This is, basically, that God allows the evil go unpunished while the good must suffer every indignity. > > It seems to me that, at this point, the writer means to answer that complaint with some sort of reasonable, knock-down argument, but can’t think of one. So he puts a bunch of unconvincing excuses into God’s mouth instead. He tries to make up for it at the end by restoring all of Job’s wealth and giving him a new family, but Job’s complaint essentially goes unanswered. > > The overall effect is to point out the huge hole in Judeo-Christian moral philosophy, without suggesting any kind of real solution other than, “because I’m God, and I can do whatever I like, so there.” What is the theological conundrum? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430/96 "2011-03-31T16:21:05Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > I’m one of the “not cover to cover, but pretty knowledgeable” votes mostly because I skipped over the who-begat-whom sections. Ditto. I’ve read all of the New Testament, but never tried to systematically read all of the Old Testament. I haven’t managed to slog my way through Leviticus, and I’ve never bothered to read the alternative version of the history of Israel/Judah in Chronicles (mostly paralleling Samuel and Kings). I haven’t read most of Ezekiel, there are surely parts of Isaiah and Jeremiah that I’ve skipped past, and there’s probably a minor prophet or two that I’ve managed to skip as well. I doubt I’ve read every Psalm and every Proverb. But I’ve read all of the NT at least once, and most of it several times. And I’ve read most of the OT at one time or another. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430/97 "2011-03-31T17:30:19Z")
Cover to cover, once. We went through the entire Jerusalem Bible in frosh Humanities at UCSD. ---
**Author:** ![Kim\_o\_the\_Concrete\_Jungle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ee7513/32.png) [@Kim\_o\_the\_Concrete\_Jungle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kim_o_the_Concrete_Jungle)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430/98 "2011-04-01T02:20:14Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > What is the theological conundrum? That if God is all-good, all-powerful, and takes a personal interest in the daily life of his creations, how does that square with the undeniable fact that sometimes good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people? The writer of Job goes out of his way to dismiss the old Jewish argument, that if something bad happens to you it must be because you have displeased God and are being punished (the explanation the book of Judges uses for just about everything bad that happens). But he kind of fails to arrive at any other satisfactory explanation (and “God works in mysterious ways” is not the least bit satisfying). This is just a sub-set of the broader problem of evil – a particularly nasty hole that Judeo-Christian theology digs for itself. (If God is good, then why does evil exist?) They’ve had two-thousand years to think about it, but they still haven’t managed to dig themselves out yet. Of course, other religious traditions don’t screw themselves over like this, because they don’t insist that God has to be all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving. I guess that’s why atheism arises most strongly out of the Christian tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430/99 "2011-04-01T02:33:27Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > Thank you. FWIW it isn’t something that I have seen you express much before. It is just very wearing when (some) secular atheists treat it as self-evident that the God-character described in most of the books of the Tanakh is (a) textually coherent (HAH!) and (b) inherently abhorrent, and therefore anyone involved in any kind of practice based on that textual tradition must be stupid or evil. I don’t think theists are stupid or evil, at least not categorically. (Some, obviously, are, but so are some atheists and agnostics). Besides, I can never be a complete atheist. I mean, there’s the Athena thing. > [@](#): > > I guess “all Jews are stupid and evil” is a change of pace from “all Jews are conniving and _a bit too clever_ and evil”, but it’s still tiring! Anyway, thank you for apologising and clarifying. You’re welcome. Y’all probably got some anti-Christian-rage I had buillt up from a…chat…with a certain relative of mine. > [@](#): > > Yes, Job is one of my favorite books for a jolly weird and interesting take on the God character. I haven’t done anywhere near as much reading on it as I’d like, but I think it’s important to remember that the whole deal started with Satan effectively playing chicken with God and God saying “Well, fine then! Fuck this guy over and kill his family, knock yourself out!” I’m not sure I see Satan as playing chicken, but the Satan of Job is not the enemy of Heaven. He _works_ in Heaven. He is quite explicitly doing his job, and to blame him for what happens to job is as silly as it would be to call the Angel of Death a murderer and a sinner for what it did to just to the first-born of Egypt. (I’d be interested to read your thoughts on why Yahweh acts as he does during the Plagues, by the way. I’ll reserve my own for the moment.) > [@](#): > > I read God as very defensive and on a back foot through that whole answer-that-isn’t-an-answer monologue (which is also quite funny: “What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings? Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years!” aka “WELL GET YOU, MISTER THINKS-HE-KNOWS-SO-MUCH”). Insisting something loudly and repeatedly is a pretty good sign of a lack of confidence. So do you agree that Yahweh loses the (moral) argument, and knows it? > [@](#): > > I’m quite keen on the development of the character of God through the different texts (compare the two God characters in Job and Jonah, for example), and especially within the same text (I am genuinely confused by any theology that doesn’t take the flood as an epic fuck-up). But maybe that’s fodder for another thread. I think I mentioned it upthread, but you may wish to read _God: A Biography_, by Jack Miles, which analyzes the Tanakh as … well, the biography of Yahweh. Let me ask you this. Do you think Yahweh realized that he had erred in the Flood? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430/100 "2011-04-01T02:38:11Z")
> [@Kim\_o\_the\_Concrete\_Jungle](#): > > That if God is all-good, all-powerful, and takes a personal interest in the daily life of his creations, how does that square with the undeniable fact that sometimes good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people? > > The writer of Job goes out of his way to dismiss the old Jewish argument, that if something bad happens to you it must be because you have displeased God and are being punished (the explanation the book of Judges uses for just about everything bad that happens). But he kind of fails to arrive at any other satisfactory explanation (and “God works in mysterious ways” is not the least bit satisfying). > > This is just a sub-set of the broader problem of evil – a particularly nasty hole that Judeo-Christian theology digs for itself. (If God is good, then why does evil exist?) They’ve had two-thousand years to think about it, but they still haven’t managed to dig themselves out yet. Of course, other religious traditions don’t screw themselves over like this, because they don’t insist that God has to be all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving. I guess that’s why atheism arises most strongly out of the Christian tradition. But the question of why “bad things happen to good people” within the context of God’s involvement (or _uninvolvement_ as it were…) isn’t an issue in the book of Job. To the extent it is addressed, it is Job’s 3 “comforters” who attempt to make the case the _Job himself_ is somehow responsible for his plight, and that drama takes up a good deal of the book of Job. The question of why bad things happen to good people is a good one, but the book of Job doesn’t pretend to contemplate it, and Job never complains that God is somehow unjust because of his trials. In other words, _“if God is all-good, all-powerful, and takes a personal interest in the daily life of his creations, how does that square with the undeniable fact that sometimes good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people”_ is neither asked or answered in the book of Job. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-read-the-bible/576430.md?page=6)