# I've suddenly become mortally petrified of undergoing general anaesthetic (personal identity Q) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 6, 2014, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650 "2014-02-06T10:43:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![LifeSucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8c91f0/32.png) [@LifeSucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeSucks)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/1 "2014-02-06T10:43:33Z")
I was entirely convinced by Tibby’s argument regarding personal identity when he said: > [@](#): > > … > Observe two functional brains before you. They are identical in every physical way. To you they are the same and it doesn’t matter which one you choose to be your fishing buddy or your wife…or both. But, to each of them they are different. How? > > They are identical, but they are not the same. This one \ is over here; that one \ is over there. They occupy separate coordinates in space. They are not exactly the same. I believe lower order consciousness is nonlocal and is inherent to the software, no matter how many copies are made or where it is booted up. I believe higher order self-awareness is unique and is tied to one and only one continuous current of electro-chemical current. It’s born when booted up for the first time. It sleeps in hibernation mode, but remains intact. Changes and degeneration can occur over time, but as long as the original current continues unabated, the self remains intact. **It dies when re-booted and a remarkably accurate impostor is born to take it’s place.** > Far be it for me to tell you how to live your lives, but, heed my warning: don’t get in a Star Trek Transporter, it will kill you. The bolded/underlined sentence really made my heart sink. Will I essentially die? Even if there’s a 1% chance this argument is true then that’s still an incredibly daunting fact for someone who will be put into “hybernation mode” and then “re-booted”. I am genuinely really quite frightened. Perhaps my fears will be attenuated upon seeing some compelling rebuttals to Tibby’s argument. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/2 "2014-02-06T10:53:34Z")
What kind of rebuttal would suffice? There are tons of people who have gone under, and they awaken seemingly intact to their own and their loved ones and friend’s satisfaction. It is POSSIBLE that they have all been replaced with slightly different imposters, perfect enough to fool everyone who knew them. Essentially every day your personality is slightly changed, that just happens from living. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/3 "2014-02-06T10:59:15Z")
Why do you think that your brain stops working when you are under anesthetic? ---
**Author:** ![LifeSucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8c91f0/32.png) [@LifeSucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeSucks)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/4 "2014-02-06T11:07:12Z")
> [@grude](#): > > What kind of rebuttal would suffice? > > There are tons of people who have gone under, and they awaken seemingly intact to their own and their loved ones and friend’s satisfaction. It is POSSIBLE that they have all been replaced with slightly different imposters, perfect enough to fool everyone who knew them. > > Essentially every day your personality is slightly changed, that just happens from living. Imagine a Star Trek teleporter that sends a molecularly identical version of you somewhere else, but imagine that in addition to you being teleported, the you that stood into the teleporter still exists. There are now two "you"s – one in the original teleporter; the other at the destination. If you were to encounter the other you, you’d both consider yourselves not the same person. This same interuption of psychological continuity may apply when undergoing general anaesthetic. I would be numerically and qualitatively identical upon waking up, but would I be a different person when it comes to my consciousness? I’m not sure if I’m explaining this too well. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/5 "2014-02-06T11:08:30Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > This same interuption of psychological continuity may apply when undergoing general anaesthetic. I would be numerically and qualitatively identical upon waking up, but would I be a different person when it comes to my consciousness? > > I’m not sure if I’m explaining this too well. But there is no evidence of that. ---
**Author:** ![LifeSucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8c91f0/32.png) [@LifeSucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeSucks)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/6 "2014-02-06T11:08:37Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Why do you think that your brain stops working when you are under anesthetic? The brain may still be alive, but my conscious state will shut down. ---
**Author:** ![LifeSucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8c91f0/32.png) [@LifeSucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeSucks)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/7 "2014-02-06T11:10:12Z")
> [@grude](#): > > But there is no evidence of that. There is simply no way evidence could prove or disprove this. This is a matter of the subjective state of consciousness. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/8 "2014-02-06T11:10:49Z")
General anesthesia isn’t exactly the same as sleep, but it isn’t all that different either. If you’re worried about one, you should be worried about the other. Do you worry that every time you fall asleep, someone else wakes up? My stance on personal identity is pretty close to Tibby’s, but I don’t worry about GA or sleep. There’s continuity in brain function, even if some higher level aspects are temporarily suppressed. Not true for a hypothetical transporter. ---
**Author:** ![LifeSucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8c91f0/32.png) [@LifeSucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeSucks)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/9 "2014-02-06T11:21:15Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > General anesthesia isn’t exactly the same as sleep, but it isn’t all that different either. If you’re worried about one, you should be worried about the other. Do you worry that every time you fall asleep, someone else wakes up? > > My stance on personal identity is pretty close to Tibby’s, but I don’t worry about GA or sleep. There’s continuity in brain function, even if some higher level aspects are temporarily suppressed. Not true for a hypothetical transporter. You can dream in your sleep, but people don’t dream when general anesthesia is in full effect. Sleep = conscious state still remnant GA = total lapse of consciousness until it wears out ---
**Author:** ![LifeSucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8c91f0/32.png) [@LifeSucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeSucks)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/10 "2014-02-06T11:34:23Z")
Also, continuing on the sleep comparison, what if we do die every time we sleep? There’s not necessarily any reason to believe we don’t. ---
**Author:** ![oz0ne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9fc348/32.png) [@oz0ne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oz0ne)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/11 "2014-02-06T11:55:58Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > Also, continuing on the sleep comparison, what if we do die every time we sleep? There’s not necessarily any reason to believe we don’t. Isn’t death the cessation of biological functions? I’m pretty sure when we sleep, we’re still biologically functioning. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/12 "2014-02-06T11:58:56Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > Sleep = conscious state still remnant > GA = total lapse of consciousness until it wears out Where is your evidence that this is true? ---
**Author:** ![LifeSucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8c91f0/32.png) [@LifeSucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeSucks)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/13 "2014-02-06T11:59:27Z")
> [@oz0ne](#): > > Isn’t death the cessation of biological functions? I’m pretty sure when we sleep, we’re still biologically functioning. You know what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![oz0ne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9fc348/32.png) [@oz0ne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oz0ne)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/14 "2014-02-06T12:06:17Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > You know what I mean. Obviously not. Break it down for me, 2nd grade style. ---
**Author:** ![VunderBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/839c29/32.png) [@VunderBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VunderBob)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/15 "2014-02-06T12:06:56Z")
Who the hell is Tibby, and why do you give them any credence? FWIW, your brain does not flatline under GA, so it does not die. And FWIW, I did happen to dream while under from propefol during an endoscopy a few weeks ago. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/16 "2014-02-06T12:12:13Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > Also, continuing on the sleep comparison, what if we do die every time we sleep? There’s not necessarily any reason to believe we don’t. Well, I’ve experienced la petite mort in bed and I’m fine with that. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/17 "2014-02-06T12:13:01Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > Also, continuing on the sleep comparison, what if we do die every time we sleep? There’s not necessarily any reason to believe we don’t. From that perspective, there’s a new “you” every second (or nano-second, or whatever the smallest division of time is.) I can see the transporter argument, because it’s a whole new bunch of atoms making up “you,” but that doesn’t apply to sleep or anesthetic. It’s all (99.9%) the same cells as before I went to sleep and after I woke up. So it is, exactly, the same “me.” Obviously, if someone suffers brain damage from whatever cause (disease, accident, etc), they may seem like a different person to everyone else, but that’s a different scenario. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/18 "2014-02-06T12:13:49Z")
Also, take a look at the [Ship of Theseus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus) paradox: > [@](#): > > The ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus’s paradox, is a thought experiment that raises the question of whether an object which has had all its components replaced remains fundamentally the same object. The paradox is most notably recorded by Plutarch in Life of Theseus from the late 1st century. Plutarch asked whether a ship which was restored by replacing each and every one of its wooden parts, remained the same ship. and consider that [Your Body Is Younger Than You Think](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/02/science/02cell.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) > [@](#): > > This heartening truth, which arises from the fact that most of the body’s tissues are under constant renewal, has been underlined by a novel method of estimating the age of human cells. Its inventor, Jonas Frisen, believes the average age of all the cells in an adult’s body may turn out to be as young as 7 to 10 years. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/19 "2014-02-06T12:14:27Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > You can dream in your sleep, but people don’t dream when general anesthesia is in full effect. You can also sleep without dreaming. Furthermore, even if that does happen during sleep, what exactly do you propose to do to stop it? (Also, seconding the ‘who the fuck is Tibby?’ sentiment.) ---
**Author:** ![oz0ne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9fc348/32.png) [@oz0ne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oz0ne)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/20 "2014-02-06T12:14:50Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Well, I’ve experienced la petite mort in bed and I’m fine with that. Bwahahaha. Me too. No worries whatsoever. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650.md?page=2)