# I've suddenly become mortally petrified of undergoing general anaesthetic (personal identity Q) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 6, 2014, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650 "2014-02-06T10:43:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/181 "2014-03-20T18:07:09Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > People were saying how there’s not a huge difference between sleep and anesthesia. And that picture does very little to answer the question, or did you miss the “Is broadly equivalent to” header? ---
**Author:** ![LifeSucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8c91f0/32.png) [@LifeSucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeSucks)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/182 "2014-03-20T18:33:01Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > And that picture does very little to answer the question, or did you miss the “Is broadly equivalent to” header? Clone someone and the clone is no longer the same person. Why? Because psychological continuity is disrupted. Two courses of consciousness now exist with separate identities. Anesthesia = disruption of psychological continuity. Same concept applies. It’s really not a difficult argument to understand. People kept saying “you should be worried about sleeping too”. Sleeping is demonstrably different and I think it’s pretty obvious why. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/183 "2014-03-20T19:02:09Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > Anesthesia = disruption of psychological continuity. Same concept applies. It’s really not a difficult argument to understand. It’s not difficult to understand, or to dismiss. Cloning is quite different than anesthesia. A much better analog is sleep or being knocked unconscious; neither of which is a problem for your “psychological continuity”. We understand your argument, but we reject it because it doesn’t address the evidence nor does it add any useful information. The picture you posted doesn’t change the equation, it just repeats it. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/184 "2014-03-22T07:11:48Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > It’s a very nice picture, but it doesn’t support anything you’ve said in this thread. If anything, it proves what people have been telling him all along – that being under anaesthesia is like, well, being asleep. So he basically gave us a cite that destroyed his entire argument. ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/185 "2014-03-22T07:48:08Z")
Just ask anyone who has ever been under if they are a copy of their original self. If they don’t know any better what difference does it make? ---
**Author:** ![LifeSucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8c91f0/32.png) [@LifeSucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeSucks)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/186 "2014-04-10T05:56:06Z")
I was just thinking today that another fundamental difference between sleep and anesthesia is that with sleep you do not lose the concept of time. After you wake up, you have some idea of how much time has lapsed. Whereas with anesthesia, from what I’ve heard of people, they have literally no concept of time. It’s as though no time had passed from when they were passed out to when they woke up. That to me is a worrying distinction to be made. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/187 "2014-04-10T07:06:03Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > If you were to teleport someone and found the teleporter malfunctioned, resulting in the person being teleported actually having their original body still in the teleporter but also having a new version of them successfully teleported. They are two different people despite being qualitatively identical. They have different tracks of thought and differing consciousness. Each will claim they are the original person. This brings up the question of what being “you” really means. I quoted this from a month and a half ago because I really want to address it. In the book _The Physics of Star Trek_, the one technology from the Star Trek universe that was considered to be the most outlandish, never-gonna-happen was teleportation. It will _never_ occur, primarily because of bandwidth issues, but also because it is flat-out impossible. At some level, I think you know this. At some level you know that everything people in this thread have been telling you is both accurate and true. So my question is “What are you getting out of this?” Does it make you feel special? Does it make you feel unique? You go in these never-ending fantasies about how precious your “continuity of consciousness” is and how fearful you are of losing it. So cut the crap and spill the beans - ‘cause you know what? Someday you _are_ going to lose your continuity of consciousness. To quote Clint Eastwood : "We all got it comin’, kid." ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/188 "2014-04-10T07:08:58Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > I was just thinking today that another fundamental difference between sleep and anesthesia is that with sleep you do not lose the concept of time. After you wake up, you have some idea of how much time has lapsed. Whereas with anesthesia, from what I’ve heard of people, they have literally no concept of time. It’s as though no time had passed from when they were passed out to when they woke up. That to me is a worrying distinction to be made. You seriously, seriously need to relax. When are you having this surgery? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/189 "2014-04-10T07:11:17Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > [http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/archive/2840/28402301.jpg](http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/archive/2840/28402301.jpg) Since we’re playing with analogies - and that link makes an interesting one - that unconsciousness is like turning down a dimmer, not flipping a switch, let me ask: With actual light switches and dimmers, consider the following scenarios: [ul] [li]I turn off a light switch - the bulb goes dark. I turn it back on again, the bulb illuminates.[/li] [li]I turn down a dimmer - the bulb dims. I continue to turn until the bulb is dark, then turn it back up and the bulb illuminates and brightens.[/li][/ul] In _either_ of those scenarios, is the light being emitted by the bulb ‘the same’ before and after the interruption? The correct answer is: no it’s not the same light, because it’s _ **not the same light from moment to moment even if the bulb is left illuminated without interruption** _. It has properties that appear consistent and continuous, but in reality, the bulb is producing a continuous stream of new light all the time. There can be no relationship or link between the light that is being emitted now and that of the past, because the past is gone. So… My argument is that our brains produce a continuous stream of fresh consciousness that looks like it is consistent and continuous, but doesn’t need to be. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/190 "2014-04-10T07:21:43Z")
Damn, **Mangetout** - you just recently went over 50,000 posts! Congrats! ---
**Author:** ![LifeSucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8c91f0/32.png) [@LifeSucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeSucks)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/191 "2014-04-10T07:22:58Z")
> [@jimbuff314](#): > > I quoted this from a month and a half ago because I really want to address it. > In the book _The Physics of Star Trek_, the one technology from the Star Trek > universe that was considered to be the most outlandish, never-gonna-happen > was teleportation. It will _never_ occur, primarily because of bandwidth > issues, but also because it is flat-out impossible. > > At some level, I think you know this. At some level you know that everything > people in this thread have been telling you is both accurate and true. So my question > is “What are you getting out of this?” Does it make you feel special? Does it make > you feel unique? You go in these never-ending fantasies about how precious your > “continuity of consciousness” is and how fearful you are of losing it. So cut the crap > and spill the beans - ‘cause you know what? Someday you _are_ going to lose > your continuity of consciousness. To quote Clint Eastwood : "We all got it comin’, kid." I genuinely and absolutely sincerely believe what I’m saying. I think people here just intuitively believe what I’m saying is incorrect without really thinking too much about it. If this was true, it would be a terrifying fact for everyone to realise. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > You seriously, seriously need to relax. When are you having this surgery? 3 weeks. ---
**Author:** ![LifeSucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8c91f0/32.png) [@LifeSucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeSucks)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/192 "2014-04-10T07:36:24Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Since we’re playing with analogies - and that link makes an interesting one - that unconsciousness is like turning down a dimmer, not flipping a switch, let me ask: > > With actual light switches and dimmers, consider the following scenarios: > [ul] > [li]I turn off a light switch - the bulb goes dark. I turn it back on again, the bulb illuminates.[/li] > [li]I turn down a dimmer - the bulb dims. I continue to turn until the bulb is dark, then turn it back up and the bulb illuminates and brightens.[/li][/ul] > > In _either_ of those scenarios, is the light being emitted by the bulb ‘the same’ before and after the interruption? > > The correct answer is: no it’s not the same light, because it’s _ **not the same light from moment to moment even if the bulb is left illuminated without interruption** _. It has properties that appear consistent and continuous, but in reality, the bulb is producing a continuous stream of new light all the time. > There can be no relationship or link between the light that is being emitted now and that of the past, because the past is gone. > > So… My argument is that our brains produce a continuous stream of fresh consciousness that looks like it is consistent and continuous, but doesn’t need to be. I understand what you’re saying and I believe you’re right, but it’s at least a lot more consoling when there’s continuity. It gives me a satisfactory illusion that I am the same person. Completely cutting me out for a period of time is a lot more unsettling and, as far as I’m concerned, is death. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/193 "2014-04-10T07:52:02Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > I genuinely and absolutely sincerely believe what I’m saying. I think people here just intuitively believe what I’m saying is incorrect without really thinking too much about it. If this was true, it would be a terrifying fact for everyone to realise. […] Ok, I’ll play. IT IS NOT TRUE. People undergo GA _all the time_ and come out of it perfectly fine. You know this. Otherwise, you are the one human on a planet of over 7,000,000,000 people who has realized the single, fundamental, horrific fact of our existence. Look at all those zeroes, use your brain for something besides belief and tell me which possibility is more likely? This is not _The Matrix_ and you are not Neo - which was another fiction. Oh, and thanks for calling me and everyone here dumbfucks. ---
**Author:** ![LifeSucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8c91f0/32.png) [@LifeSucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeSucks)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/194 "2014-04-10T08:17:35Z")
> [@jimbuff314](#): > > Ok, I’ll play. > > IT IS NOT TRUE. People undergo GA _all the time_ and come out of it perfectly > fine. You know this. Otherwise, you are the one human on a planet of over > 7,000,000,000 people who has realized the single, fundamental, horrific fact of > our existence. Look at all those zeroes, use your brain for something besides belief > and tell me which possibility is more likely? This is not _The Matrix_ and you > are not Neo - which was another fiction. > > Oh, and thanks for calling me and everyone here dumbfucks. You’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. I don’t know how to explain it any other way than I have before. I’ll try one more time. Imagine there was some sophisticated cloning machine (I know it’s impossible but it’s a hypothetical situation that helps explain my point) which would clone you perfectly so that there were two of you. The second you would be certain he’s the original. It would be mindblowing to him to think that he was actually just spawned into existence. He would be just as sure of being the same person as anyone coming out of general anesthesia would be sure they’re the same person who went under just a couple of hours before. My fundamental point is that conscious continuity is key to maintaining the idea of being the same person. Going under general anesthesia is the same sort of disruption of continuity as being cloned. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/195 "2014-04-10T08:41:09Z")
I don’t think it is. I’m not going to try to convince you of that, however. Better people here than I have broken their picks on you. As I see it, you have 2 paths ahead of you. Undergo the surgery in 3 weeks, come out of the GA and pinch yourself, prod yourself - do whatever you have to to prove to yourself that you are you. I promise you that you will be you. If not, you can look me up and kick my ass. The other possibility is to get some therapeutic help. I don’t like telling people they’re out of touch with reality, but on this issue, I think you might be. I do believe that _you_ believe this and are genuinely fearful of it. I don’t think there is anything anyone on this message board can do for you. You have my empathy and my concern. Please be well and take care. ---
**Author:** ![LifeSucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8c91f0/32.png) [@LifeSucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeSucks)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/196 "2014-04-10T09:45:13Z")
> [@jimbuff314](#): > > I don’t think it is. I’m not going to try to convince you of that, however. > Better people here than I have broken their picks on you. As I see it, > you have 2 paths ahead of you. Undergo the surgery in 3 weeks, come out > of the GA and pinch yourself, prod yourself - do whatever you have to to > prove to yourself that you are you. I promise you that you will be you. If > not, you can look me up and kick my ass. > > The other possibility is to get some therapeutic help. I don’t like telling people > they’re out of touch with reality, but on this issue, I think you might be. I do believe that _you_ believe this and are genuinely fearful of it. I don’t think there is > anything anyone on this message board can do for you. You have my empathy > and my concern. Please be well and take care. Assuming what I’m saying is true, “I” would just as easily come back and type to you that I’m still the same person. It wouldn’t mean I am. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/197 "2014-04-10T10:48:12Z")
Wow, that took a while for you to come up with. Yeah, I can’t do much to help you determine if you _are_ you afterwards. I’m afraid that’s gonna be pretty much on you. But in that case, I really don’t see your problem. I mean, how would you be able to tell that you weren’t you? This is not me trying to trick you, it’s a real, legitimate question. You say “It wouldn’t mean that I am (the same person)”. Who is this person that is determining whether or not you are you? One last point I want to make and then, insomniac though I am, I need to try to grab some sleep. The brain is never not active. Asleep, under anesthesia, no matter what, the brainwaves keep rolling on out on EEGs. This is of no small comfort to me in matters such as this, truly. I hope you can find a means to have it be of some comfort to you. I’ll be glad to talk some more later, if you want. In the meantime, avail yourself of some of the other great people here. They’ll be glad to interact with you. Just bear in mind that life is hard and stressful, and it can leave people easily frustrated. Something I like about you is that you are slow to anger. I’ve thrown a couple of hardballs at you and you never rose nor reacted to them. You kept right on track with your thing. To me, this is the mark of a strong and purposeful mind. Please take care of it. There are relatively few of them around. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/198 "2014-04-10T12:11:49Z")
> [@LifeSucks](#): > > You’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. I don’t know how to explain it any other way than I have before. > > I’ll try one more time. Imagine there was some sophisticated cloning machine (I know it’s impossible but it’s a hypothetical situation that helps explain my point) which would clone you perfectly so that there were two of you. The second you would be certain he’s the original. It would be mindblowing to him to think that he was actually just spawned into existence. He would be just as sure of being the same person as anyone coming out of general anesthesia would be sure they’re the same person who went under just a couple of hours before. > > My fundamental point is that conscious continuity is key to maintaining the idea of being the same person. Going under general anesthesia is the same sort of disruption of continuity as being cloned. Even if it is, our conclusion from this thought experiment should be that _consciousness already obviously isn’t what it seems to be._ You’re already dying at every moment and being replaced by a copy. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/199 "2014-04-10T13:08:27Z")
This thread reminds me of debates between atheists and monotheists. There is not hard evidence that God exists other than millennia of faith among groups of people and their shared experience. **LifeSucks** believes this phenomena of her _self_ being replaced if she were to undergo anesthesia, even though there is no evidence to support it. It’s a bit unique in that I don’t think there is shared experience for this belief among other people…so she’s a bit of a pioneer. ---
**Author:** ![LifeSucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8c91f0/32.png) [@LifeSucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeSucks)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650/200 "2014-04-10T13:47:41Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > This thread reminds me of debates between atheists and monotheists. There is not hard evidence that God exists other than millennia of faith among groups of people and their shared experience. **LifeSucks** believes this phenomena of her _self_ being replaced if she were to undergo anesthesia, even though there is no evidence to support it. It’s a bit unique in that I don’t think there is shared experience for this belief among other people…so she’s a bit of a pioneer. It’s not. I have logically deduced this. I would love, **LOVE** more than anything to not believe this, but I do. > [@Mangetout](#): > > Even if it is, our conclusion from this thought experiment should be that _consciousness already obviously isn’t what it seems to be._ > > You’re already dying at every moment and being replaced by a copy. I already responded to this: > [@LifeSucks](#): > > I understand what you’re saying and I believe you’re right, but it’s at least a lot more consoling when there’s continuity. It gives me a satisfactory illusion that I am the same person. Completely cutting me out for a period of time is a lot more unsettling and, as far as I’m concerned, is death. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ive-suddenly-become-mortally-petrified-of-undergoing-general-anaesthetic-personal-identity-q/680650.md?page=11)